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iamlamad

Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

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I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order? 

As I read it, Jesus  begins this book right where John was at the time, around 95 AD.  In chapter 21, we see John is beyond the thousand year reign of Christ, so far far into our future today.  It just makes sense then that somewhere between chapters 1 and chapters 21, is where the church is TODAY. 

I hope then that all the writers here will show us where they perceive the church is today in the book of Revelation. I am not interested in preterist thought - only those that believe much of Revelation is still future need answer. 

 

Next, I would like to see where everyone places the start of the Day of the Lord, and WHY. 

Next, where do people see the start of the 70th week and why.

Finally, where do people see the exact midpoint, and why.

Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week. 

With that said, John TELLS US where the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins: right at the 6th seal. 

Next, I see the 70th week beginning right at the 7th seal, and I see the midpoint right at the 7th trumpet. I see the week end at the 7th vial. therefore the entire week is marked by 7's. 

I find it amusing that people imagine they can move events around (rearranging) revelation to fit a theory. I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book AS WRITTEN. I find such a theory fits all end times scriptures.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order? 

Revelation is written in the order - of what John was shown and told.     But regarding the fulfillment of those events to be in the correct sequence, it has to be figured out where they go on a timeline.

To figure out where the events go on the timeline - it takes the entire bible.     

Edited by douggg
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it.

If one goes by the order which John was shown and told, then....

Revelation 11:2 42 months

followed by Revelation 11:3 1260 days

followed by Revelation 11    3 1/2 days

followed by Revelation 12:6   1260 days

followed by Revelation 12:14  time, times, half times

followed by Revelaton 13:5 42 months

The total of those timeframes is ~17 1/2 years.         Which is over 10 years more than the 7 years of the 70th week.   So, the in order written down doesn't work.

It should be obvious that the "like" timeframes, should be grouped together and placed on a timeline accordingly.    That is, the 1260 days go together.    And the 42 months go together.

 

 

Edited by douggg
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17 minutes ago, douggg said:

Revelation is written in the order - of what John was shown and told.     But regarding the fulfillment of those events to be in the correct sequence, it has to be figured out where they go on a timeline.

To figure out where the events go on the timeline - it takes the entire bible.     

I disagree: people IMAGINE they must figure something out - when the truth is, they don't! Its already written in perfect chronological order!

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Just now, douggg said:

If one goes by the order which John was shown and told, then....

Revelation 11:2 42 months

followed by Revelation 11:3 1260 days

followed by Revelation 11    3 1/2 days

followed by Revelation 12:6   1260 days

followed by Revelation 12:14  time, times, half times

followed by Revelaton 13:5 42 months

The total of those timeframes is ~17 1/2 years.         Which is over 10 years more than the 7 years of the 70th week.   So, the in order written down doesn't work.

It should be obvious that the "like" timeframes, should be grouped together and placed on a timeline accordingly.    That is, the 1260 days go together.    And the 42 months go together.

 

 

This is only because you have not recognized John's parentheses. For example, 11:4 through 11:13 is a parenthesis with no bearing on timing. 

The truth is, while the 42 months of authority is happening, so is the 3 1/2 years of protection, and so is the 1260 days of fleeing, and so is the  1260 days of testifying, and so is the 42 months of trampling. They are all running concurrently. EVERY event that  includes the 3 1/2 year period of time will start near the midpoint and go to the end of the week, so all running parallel to each other.

The problem is, when two events are happening at the same time, it is impossible to write them so - so John writes one event, then another event - even though they may start very close together.

Then John wrote some things a parentheses, but did not use markers. 

In general, events in a given chapter will happen AFTER the events of a previous chapter, and BEFORE events of later chapters. That is John's chronology.

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For one, the inherent prejudice of governing doctrines. People tend to apply personal doctrine to facts instead of gleaning truth and gaining understanding. 

We dont want the truth. We want our truth.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The problem is, when two events are happening at the same time, it is impossible to write them so - so John writes one event, then another event - even though they may start very close together.

John wrote things down in the order he saw them and was told.     John was not seeing one thing with one eye and another thing with the other eye...    that it was impossible to write them.

John saw and was told - chapter 7, then chapter 8, then chapter 9, then chapter 10, then chapter 11......   the order which John wrote them down is the exact order he was shown and told.     

The order shown though is not the sequence the events are fulfilled.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The two 1260 day events are both either (1) the first half of the 7 years, or (2) the second half of the 7 years, or (3) both spanning the across the midpoint.   

Since the 1260 days is exactly half of the 2520 day 7 years - then it is either (1) or (2).       And since the world celebrates the death of the two witnesses at the end of their 1260 day testimony - that eliminates (2).    So the 1260 day events are the first half of the 7 years.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since the 42 month events would likewise be paired together, but expressed differently timewise than the 1260 days - those go in the remaining half, the second half.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In Revelation 12, the 1260 days the first half of the 7 years come before the time, times, half times remaining to Satan - the time, times, half times go in the second half.

 

Summarizing:

 

First half of the seven years

1260 days,  Revelation 11:3, 12:6

 

~ Second half of the seven years

42 months,  Revelation 11:2, 13:5

time, times, half time, Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

 

 

 

 

 

      

Edited by douggg

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6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order? 

This is one huge problem. You set up disagreement with this statement. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As I read it, Jesus  begins this book right where John was at the time, around 95 AD.  In chapter 21, we see John is beyond the thousand year reign of Christ, so far far into our future today.  It just makes sense then that somewhere between chapters 1 and chapters 21, is where the church is TODAY. 

See what I mean about personal belief? 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week.

You see? What about facts?

 

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 There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches. This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22. If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

That is a good observation.

  To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches. This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22. If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

That's some good rationale... to support that the rapture will take place before the 70th week begins.     But there is the possibility that the rapture may not happen until after the 70th week begins - right up to the day the Antichrist commits the act in 2Thesslaonians2:4, in the early middle part of the 7 years.

 

 

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      Question: the theory that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is what stopped the daily sacrifices has been proposed on this forum. When we understand that the daily sacrifices DID NOT STOP when Jesus died, and did not stop when he rose from the dead, but continued on for many years, how can it be possible that anyone can still hold to that theory?  The truth is, Jesus did NOT stop the daily sacrifices: these verses tell us it is the placing of an abomination in the temple that stops the sacrifices. All Jesus did was stop the NEED for these sacrifices.
      Comparing all these translations, and these verses: it is clear, there is an abomination that will cause the daily sacrifices to cease at the midpoint (halfway point) of the week. That abomination will be placed (or will walk) into the Holy of Holies, and then from that time, desolations will continue to the end.
      Question: since the stopping of the daily sacrifices and the presence of the abomination of desolation are found right next to each other in one sentence, can we establish a cause and effect relationship? i think we can. The Old Testament tells us if the temple is desecrated, it must be cleansed before Sacrifices can continue again.
      Now, what can we find in the New Testament that will confirm this?
      Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
      How can anyone with common sense deny that this is speaking of the same thing we found in Daniel? Jesus is quoting Daniel! And Jesus is answering a question about the end of the age. This end of the age is still ahead of us today.  Now let's examine this event: the conclusion from all the scriptures in Daniel is that an EVENT: the placing of an abomination in the temple, will cause the daily sacrifices to stop. And this event will be what divides the week.
      Question: how in the world can an event in our future divide a week, if we don't have an entire week to divide? It would be impossible. There MUST BE an entire week in our future that can be divided into two equal halves. The scriptures prove it is an abomination that will divided the week and stop the daily sacrifices.  Jesus Himself put this abomination into our future (the end of the age).  Therefore, if it is the abomination that divided the week, THERE MUST BE A WEEK TO DIVIDE at the same time.
      Then there is another point: the HE that confirms a covenant is the same HE that will break this covenant.
      Question: can anyone imagine that Jesus Christ would break a covenant after 3 1/2 years? Does GOD break covenants?
      It seems the scriptural evidence is overwhelming that sometime in our future, someone will enter the temple or place in the temple an abomination, and this will stop the sacrifices and will divide the week.  Paul tells us that the man of sin will accomplish this.
      Comments?
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