Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[HAZARD]

The Rapture of the Church will occur before the Tribulation.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.

Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36.

These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power.

 

 

[douggg]

12 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The Rapture of the Church will occur before the Tribulation.

By "the Tribulation" are you referring to the 7 year 70th week?   Or the part of the 70th week after the abomination of desolation is setup?

It is a gross error to refer to the 7 year 70th week as "the Tribulation" because for most of the first half, the world will not be in tribulation, but will be thinking and saying peace and safety.

As a remedy, a person should be saying the 7 years of the 70th week.   Or the 7 years.     Or the 70th week.    Any of those would be correct, if the person is intending to mean the entire 7 years or that specific period of time..     

Quote

These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power.

Certainly, a good point.

Edited August 23, 2018 by douggg

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, 

So we begin with a conclusion; "Must be after the churches"

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. 

 

And then iterate the conclusion before facts,

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, 

And then base a 'truthful' conclusion on supposition; "must be after the churches" a fact which is not proven by any means except for desire. For in no way does the fact that John was caught up equate to anyone else being caught up. It's not stated, it's not implied, no allusion; only based on...nothing.

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22.

And the proof, "John was caught up, so the churches are caught up" is not proof as it cannot be verified. It could be true, but no direct statement lends support, so it's all based on the unprovable, and therefore uncertain and likely false, premise that everyone is caught up when John is caught up.

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

Do you hear the tone of the possible? 'If...', and 'believe that...' That's a great deal of uncertainty and not truth.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is one huge problem. You set up disagreement with this statement. 

See what I mean about personal belief? 

You see? What about facts?

 

I don't agree: EVERYONE should agree that Revelation is written AS written with whatever order it is written in! No one should disagree with this statement. The disagreement is, if Revelation is written in the proper order of sequencing. 

Would ANYONE disagree that in chapter 1, John was still alive - so it was dated in the first century? When John wrote, "I John, in the tribulation..." we all know dead men cannot write! So this MUST be while John was alive. Same with chapter 4 when John was caught up to heaven: it is obvious he was alive. 

I also think all will agree that in chapter 21, John speaks of events still in our future. Do you disagree with either of these statements? 

 

Here is the big problem: there is a different between "facts" and PERCEIVED facts. Many times our perceptions get in the way of the true facts. That is why I frequenly refer to preconceived glasses.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

So we begin with a conclusion; "Must be after the churches"

And then iterate the conclusion before facts,

And then base a 'truthful' conclusion on supposition; "must be after the churches" a fact which is not proven by any means except for desire. For in no way does the fact that John was caught up equate to anyone else being caught up. It's not stated, it's not implied, no allusion; only based on...nothing.

And the proof, "John was caught up, so the churches are caught up" is not proof as it cannot be verified. It could be true, but no direct statement lends support, so it's all based on the unprovable, and therefore uncertain and likely false, premise that everyone is caught up when John is caught up.

Do you hear the tone of the possible? 'If...', and 'believe that...' That's a great deal of uncertainty and not truth.

EXACTLY! Very good post! The general belief of pretribbers that the rapture is in Rev. 4:1 is based on nothing but imagination! We can all read that JOHN was caught up! There is not the slightest hint that the church was caught up with John, or that somehow John being caught up should hint that the church was caught up there too. Pretribbers have done a terrible thing here, for both posttribbers and prewrathers can read! 

I hope then that we can all agree, the rapture of the church is NOT represented in Rev. 4:1. 

I can always hope that we all base our beliefs one what is written, not imagination. But again, those pesky preconceived glasses mess with perceptions of what is written.

It takes but a tiny bit of common sense to know that John came back from his trip to heaven to write the book! Add to that, in chapter 5 John is still alive to the real time is NOT "after the churches." It is after what John wrote to the churches!  AGain, common sense would say all seven of those churches were still there while John was seeing chapter 5 play out. 

The truth is, John use a phrase like, "after these things" as a transitional phrase to go from one part of the vision to another. Why try to make it say anything else? He used something similar I think 6 times in Revelation.

Edited August 23, 2018 by iamlamad

[Still Alive]

It was a dream. 

Nobody saw Jesus coming the way he did, even though it was all over the old testament. I think the same thing will happen regarding this Apocaliptic prophesy. 

When I first started studying this stuff, it was all about locusts being helicopters and oil in the middle east, russia, etc. 

I've stopped making predictions about it and just choose to know what scripture says so I'll know it is happening when it happens, assuming I'm alive at that time. One thing's for sure, I will have an end. At least, this body I occupy will. 

I believe that everyone is wrong in serious ways, regarding this stuff.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Still Alive

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The Rapture of the Church will occur before the Tribulation.

 

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.

Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36.

These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power.

This is a good post and I agree with it. I think there is proof in scripture for it. But I know some will disagree. I am amazed that God could write of an escape, and some not believe there is an escape. This is what baffles me!  But it comes down to how different people read the same verse and put their own preconceptions on those words.

For those that don't believe in a pretrib rapture, please tell us HOW escape can means something else than "escape?" 

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

For one, the inherent prejudice of governing doctrines. People tend to apply personal doctrine to facts instead of gleaning truth and gaining understanding. 

We dont want the truth. We want our truth.

The truth is, there is no such thing as "Our truth!" But people perceive it so. It is simple: everyone reads with their own preconceived glasses. It is very difficult not to do so - but it is possible.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

John wrote things down in the order he saw them and was told.     John was not seeing one thing with one eye and another thing with the other eye...    that it was impossible to write them.

John saw and was told - chapter 7, then chapter 8, then chapter 9, then chapter 10, then chapter 11......   the order which John wrote them down is the exact order he was shown and told.     

The order shown though is not the sequence the events are fulfilled.

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The two 1260 day events are both either (1) the first half of the 7 years, or (2) the second half of the 7 years, or (3) both spanning the across the midpoint.   

Since the 1260 days is exactly half of the 2520 day 7 years - then it is either (1) or (2).       And since the world celebrates the death of the two witnesses at the end of their 1260 day testimony - that eliminates (2).    So the 1260 day events are the first half of the 7 years.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since the 42 month events would likewise be paired together, but expressed differently timewise than the 1260 days - those go in the remaining half, the second half.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In Revelation 12, the 1260 days the first half of the 7 years come before the time, times, half times remaining to Satan - the time, times, half times go in the second half.

 

Summarizing:

 

First half of the seven years

1260 days,  Revelation 11:3, 12:6

 

~ Second half of the seven years

42 months,  Revelation 11:2, 13:5

time, times, half time, Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7     

The order shown though is not the sequence the events are fulfilled.  This is in fact, a statement of opinion! I hope you can prove it with scripture! 

The two 1260 day events are both either (1) the first half of the 7 years, or (2) the second half of the 7 years, or (3) both spanning the across the midpoint.      This is a common sense statement that I hope all can agree with.

And since the world celebrates the death of the two witnesses at the end of their 1260 day testimony - that eliminates (2).    So the 1260 day events are the first half of the 7 years. 

Sorry, but this is simply not truth. That fact does NOT eliminate #2.  You imagine it does - but it does not.  Yes, the world DOES celebrate - but that does not prove timing. Perhaps it hints at timing.  The truth is, people LIVE THROUGH all the terrible events - telling us they are not as bad as John makes out.  There are still people in nations that are alive. Therefore it is VERY possible that even at the end of the week, in total darkness, people send gifts. That also tells us that transportation is still working.  Could it be that much of Revelation happens in the Middle East and NOT around the world? 

I think there is a stronger argument on the other side: all through the book, things happen at the point of mention - with perhaps an exception or two when prophecy is given.  Douggg would have us believe that the two witnesses showed up way back at the 7th seal, but John did not mention them then. Perhaps John did not see them then, but they did show up then.  That is simply not the way this book is written. All through the book, outside of the two witnesses, things happen right when they are mentioned.  I think for this reason, it is FAR more likely the two witnesses SHOW UP right when they are mentioned. 

It is probably a point we will always disagree on. 

Second point: and it can be proven: the second 1260 days MUST BE in the second half, because of the words of Jesus: people will flee WHEN they see the abomination that divides the week. Period and end of story.  The Greek word translated "midst" means to divide in half. Yet, some imagine God's arithmetic can be sloppy! I think the two mentions of 1260 PROVE God is not sloppy with his numbers.  So the 1260 days of fleeing MUST be in the last half. 

I will get raked over the coals for saying it, but I will say it anyway. Jesus spoke these words to me and I HEARD them:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time..." 

That tells me that all mentions of the 3 1/2 years, whether given in days or months or years, ALL are for the last half of the week. Since chapters 11 to 14 are MIDPOINT chapters, I think anything in these chapters must then be midpoint events. 

What many people fail to recognize, any event starting at the midpoint and lasting 3 1/2 years long, MUST then end near the 7th vial that ends the week! 

Since the 42 month events would likewise be paired together, but expressed differently timewise than the 1260 days - those go in the remaining half, the second half.  This is only supposition. Can it be proven? We will see.

In Revelation 12, the 1260 days the first half of the 7 years come before the time, times, half times remaining to Satan - the time, times, half times go in the second half.  To me this makes no sense!  BOTH of these events are about those in Judea that will flee into the wilderness - and that fleeing will not begin until they see the abomination that divides the week! Therefore BOTH must indeed by in the last half of the week.

Therefore I disagree with most of this post. My thought processes on these verses is certainly different.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches. This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22. If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

 

As much as I have enjoyed Clint Eastwood movies  (Go ahead: make my day!) I must disagree in part. John DID write: "after these things" but he wrote something very similar 5 more times. No one attaches more meaning to the other 5. When then do people try to attach more meaning to this one phrase? The truth is, it is NOT after the churches. That is human reasoning and imagination. The churches still exist while John was in heaven seeing chapter 5 play out! The churches still exited when John returned to earth and wrote the book. John used this ONLY as a transitional phrase, with ONE MEANING: God began to show John something else.  So the real meaning, AFTER God showed John the messages he was to give to each church, God called John up to heaven to show him other things. 

Another thing: people always IMAGINE John wrote that God would show John ONLY things "hereafter." But ONLY is not found there! Therefore, God could have shown John two or three future events, and finished the book with recipes for manna and HE would NOT be going against this verse.  The truth is, God included some history with the future events.

Another proof: seal one is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. they are told they must wait for the FULL NUMBER of martyrs to come in. In other words, they must wait for the pretrib rapture that will END the church age.

Therefore I disagree with much of this post.