Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[HAZARD]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

So we begin with a conclusion; "Must be after the churches"

And then iterate the conclusion before facts,

And then base a 'truthful' conclusion on supposition; "must be after the churches" a fact which is not proven by any means except for desire. For in no way does the fact that John was caught up equate to anyone else being caught up. It's not stated, it's not implied, no allusion; only based on...nothing.

And the proof, "John was caught up, so the churches are caught up" is not proof as it cannot be verified. It could be true, but no direct statement lends support, so it's all based on the unprovable, and therefore uncertain and likely false, premise that everyone is caught up when John is caught up.

Do you hear the tone of the possible? 'If...', and 'believe that...' That's a great deal of uncertainty and not truth.

In your opinion!

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, douggg said:

No, I would not.    The two witnesses begin their testimony and prophesy against the Antichrist when he is anointed the King of Israel (illegitimate) and confirms the covenant with many to begin the 7 years.     In Revelation, that time is when the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, is given a crown making him the King of Israel (illegitimate), perceived messiah.

Right! What you have never agreed to is that the covenant will be confirmed at the opening of the 7th seal. It is truth anyway. 

And you are TOTALLY wrong on the white horse. 

Douggg, why are you ignoring the CONTEXT of this white horse?

Rev. 5

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.  

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

In verse 2, and angel is asking WHO is worthy to open the seals.

In verse 3 a search was made for one worthy - and this search ended in failure. But WHY did it end in failure? There can be only one reason. Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer of mankind. 

In verse 4 John wept because no man was found.

In verse 5, SUDDENLY THERE WAS A CHANGE IN THE SITUATION! Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of Judah has prevailed.......prevailed over WHAT? I say He prevailed over DEATH and in doing so prevailed over the devil who hand help men captive after death.  Now, at that moment in time, someone was found worthy to open the seals so the book could be opened. 

In verse 6, SUDDENLY a new entity appeared in the throne room that WAS NOT THERE in chapter 4: It was the Lamb of God, appearing as if He had just been slain. He came with the Holy Spirit and immediately sent Him down. 

Now I ask you WHEN did these things occur. A correct answer could be 31 AD or thereabouts, 32 AD or thereabouts, or perhaps 33 AD, depending on how people read these scriptures.  

I have another question for you now:  WHERE is your 2000 years that are necessary to believe the first white horse in seal 1 is still future to us today? Look very closely!

 

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

¹¹ And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

¹² Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

¹³ And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

¹⁴ And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Amazing! There IS no 2000 years there in any verse - or between verses - not even a HINT of any time. What is this really telling us? Jesus took the book, about 32 AD, and began RIGHT THEN opening the seals.  But with study, we see that he had to stop way back then on the 5th seal. WHY is that? Because the 6th seal is still future to us today.  

You are free to believe otherwise, but you will be mistaken.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

In your opinion!

AND in the opinion of until millions of other believers and perhaps even commentators. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by iamlamad

[Steve Conley]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I see your second point as impossible: because God's wrath begins at the 6th seal - before the 70th week begins.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, it isn't the wrath of God that starts at the opening of the sixth seal, it is the day of His wrath that begins at that point. The first stroke of His wrath is at the blowing of the first trumpet (Rev 8:7) later the same day.

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

He will rescue or deliver His own first on that day.

Praise Jesus

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, it isn't the wrath of God that starts at the opening of the sixth seal, it is the day of His wrath that begins at that point. The first stroke of His wrath is at the blowing of the first trumpet (Rev 8:7) later the same day.

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

He will rescue or deliver His own first on that day.

Praise Jesus

 

Hmmm. The DAY of God's wrath begins, but He is not yet angry?  How much time to you imagine between the 7th seal and the first trumpet judgment? I would guess, ten days - as in the ten days of AWE.  Therefore I would not agree with later in the same day. 

I rather think that the DAY of His wrath starts then simply because He starts getting angry!  

I disagree again, because Paul shows us the rapture comes FIRST with the DAY following the rapture. God is NOT angry with the church.

However, all that said, I would not argue this point very hard, because we are talking about a very small difference in time.

[HAZARD]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

AND in the opinion of until millions of other believers and perhaps even commentators. 

This is not a competition on who gets to have the last word, were all entitles to agree or disagree. The majority disagreed with Jesus and the disciples to the point of murdering Him. Did that make Him wrong in everything He said and did and taught?

[iamlamad]

36 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

This is not a competition on who gets to have the last word, were all entitles to agree or disagree. The majority disagreed with Jesus and the disciples to the point of murdering Him. Did that make Him wrong in everything He said and did and taught?

No, of course Jesus was right. I agree that it is not competition. But on the other hand, there are millions of believers around the world that read their bible. Someone on a thread once said that the pretrib rapture doctrine was mostly a US of A doctrine. So I wrote to believers in nearly ever nation in Africa and asked them if they believe in a pretrib rapture. I think the answers were about 90% FOR a pretrib rapture, and their reason why?  "It's in the bible,"  was a common answer. I would guess I got 50 answers back.  I used Interpals web site for this. 

But then, there are things in our Christian walk that I believe and the vast majority don't believe. I have to agree with you, the majority are not always right.

However, the truth still remains: the text tells  us JOHN was caught up, and most believe it was around 95 AD. the text says he was caught up to learn the future. And we know now, it was so we have this book.

Please then, point out why you imagine this has anything to do with the rapture? Is the church that disparate to find the rapture in Revelation? 

I can give you a hint, John SAW the church as the group too large to number, IN HEAVEN right after the rapture - but John did not SEE the rapture so did not write of it.

Edited August 23, 2018 by iamlamad

[JoeCanada]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

To postulate what one believers Revelation says, does require a theory of what that believer believes the text says and means.

I find the 70th week marked by 7's: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.  Probably most would not find this. It is truth anyway. 

Isa 34:8  For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.

IN CONTEXT this is speaking of the destruction of EDOM.  Is this "day" the "day of the Lord?" That would be very hard to prove!  Is God's wrath on the DAY of His wrath limited to Edom? No, of course not!  Therefore He may very well have OTHER years of retribution for the nations of the world. 

In the Old Testament, God has given us so to speak, and telescope view of something in the future. This view gives us just the barest outline. On the other hand, in the New Testament we may get a MICROscope view, where we see all the details. When then of these two would be the best to learn the details from? OF COURSE the microscope view. Daniel did, indeed, tell us of the 70th week and tell us it would be 7 years, and told us of an event that would divide the week and stop teh daily sacrifices. On the other hand, Revelation has 9 chapters of information on the 70th week. Why then attempt to base doctrine on a telescope view that gives only a fraction of the information?  The truth is, there is no verse that limits His wrath in THE DAY to only one year. 

Isaiah 61:2     to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and a day of vindication for our God,  to comfort all who mourn,

Isaiah 61:2 is again a telescope view in two or three verses when we have many chapters in the New telling us about the life of Christ. Does this verse REALLY tell us teh DAY OF THE LORD will be only one year? NO! Why not say the DAY will be only one 24 hour day? After all, this verse says A DAY of vindication! Next, is the context of this verse about the "Day of the Lord?" This verse is only ONE VERSE where we have chapters on this in Revelation. Why then attempt to form a doctrine on one verse? there is simply NO WAY to prove this verse is speaking about the length of the Day of the Lord.  I could say the same for your Isa. 63 verse. 

I will therefore say it again:  "" if the theory comes from the WORD correctly understood, it will be correct." 

 

I don't find THE DAY being 7 years. As I read the book, THE DAY includes the 1000 year reign of Christ and perhaps what follows, as in the new heaven and new earth to include the white throne judgment. It is the WEEK that is 7 years long.

I don't find THE DAY being 7 years. As I read the book, THE DAY includes the 1000 year reign of Christ and perhaps what follows, as in the new heaven and new earth to include the white throne judgment. It is the WEEK that is 7 years long.

But you say...."Therefore, when read of His wrath later on in Revelation, I think we can rightly assume that it started at the 6th seal and CONTINUES ON through the entire week.

So....are you saying that God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord....is or isn't 7 years long?... You say that the Day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal and continues on through the entire week. The entire week being 7 years.

Then you say that the Day of the Lord is 1000 years long!!!!!

Do you see this happening throughout the 1000 year period..............

It will be a day of calamity....a day of wrath....a day of distress and anguish....a day of trouble and ruin....a day of clouds and darkness...a day of fire and brimstone

Isaiah describes a massive leveling; whatever is lofty will be brought low (2:12-170).....there is fear, pain and anguish will grip them(13:8).......Malachai 3:19.. For the Day of the Lord is coming, burning like an oven

I find scripture to be pretty clear. After the Tribulation of those days (Math 24).....there will be a celestial and terrestrial event (Math 24:29, Luke 21:25-26, Joel 2:31, Rev 6:12.......), We look up for our redemption is near (Luke 21:25-28).....Christ comes on the clouds and every eye will see Him, and He Resurrects and Raptures believers (Math 24:31, 1Thes 4:15-17, 2Thes 2:1........ALL THIS TAKES PLACE WHEN GOD CUTS SHORT THE TRIBULATION.......AND THEN THE DAY OF THE LORD COMMENCES, THE DAY OF WRATH. THAT'S WHY THE DAY OF THE LORD IS ONE YEAR LONG. THE TRIBULATION IS SHORTENED BY ONE YEAR.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

In your opinion!

Not mine. The Lord has said. Or in the case of pretrib doctrine, the Lord has NOT said.

[HAZARD]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Not mine. The Lord has said. Or in the case of pretrib doctrine, the Lord has NOT said.

Again, In your opinion!