Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[Alan Hales]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You are still not understanding. I can guess it is because you imagine God's wrath beginning at seal #1. You are mistaken, not believing John. He tells us that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal.  The first thing God sent me to find in Revelation was the 70th week, as He said, "clearly marked." He told me how to find it, starting with the midpoint "clearly marked." The 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week with the 30 minutes of silence; the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet, and the end is marked by the 7th vial. The 70th week is inside the Day of the Lord. The DAY starts at the 6th seal. Do you imagine that the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider are the devil's anger?  Why not just believe John - that Satan does not get angry until he is cast down at the 7th trumpet? 

The first seal was opened around 32 AD: to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

The second, third and fourth seals were opened at the same time, to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These three were limited to 1/4 the earth's surface.  These three ride together. 

the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They were told they must wait for the full number to come in before judgment can come. 

The 6th seal brings the start of judgment - so the full number had to come in before the 6th seal is opened. This tells us exactly where the rapture will take place. The moment the rapture has finished, it will be the DAY of the LORD. 

Therefore, just as God has said, the church will be raptured pretrib and prewrath.  

What part of this do you not believe? 

 

The Church has been raptured to heaven before the Ant-Christ comes, Never mind the FIRST seal. 

So what's all this about the 6th seal??.

You contradict your self, you say the Church is still on earth at the 6th sea, But then you say you believe the Pre-trib rapture.

Make up your mind.

 

I have just seen your mistake, you said the 1st seal was opened around 32 AD. But, No seal is opened until the tribulation period, After the Church is in heaven.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Alan Hales

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

1 Cor 15 isn't talking about our physical bodies, If you read it properly you'll see we will be changed. Vs48--53.

What you said about our changing,  Is the rapture,  Your argument is with God and His word, You should tell God how wrong He is.

You stated we DISAPPEAR, but we do not, we DIE. If you chose to ignore the facts you can do so, that's on you, no flesh will enter Heaven.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible (BODY/FLESH) must put on incorruption(Spirit man), and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible(flesh) shall have put on incorruption(Spirit man), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

Like I stated, we are changed to a SPIRIT MAN and then we are Raptured to Heaven. FACT. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

The Church has been raptured to heaven before the Ant-Christ comes, Never mind the FIRST seal. 

So what's all this about the 6th seal??.

You contradict your self, you say the Church is still on earth at the 6th sea, But then you say you believe the Pre-trib rapture.

Make up your mind.

 

I have just seen your mistake, you said the 1st seal was opened around 32 AD. But, No seal is opened until the tribulation period, After the Church is in heaven.

You are mistaken in your thinking - thinking that the 5th seal must be somewhere in the 70th week or in the "trib." The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age! Stephen was one of the first. this seal was opened around 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended. It is the 6th seal that is the FIRST seal in our future. It is judgment. We are still in the age of grace.

I see that you are sincere, but you are sincerely wrong.  But then, so are millions. They all follow tradition. WHO started the tradition that the first seal is FUTURE?  I don't know.  What I do know is that the first seal was opened around 32 AD, EXACTLY as John shows it in chapters 4-6.  You want to find 2000 years somewhere in those verses, but it is not to be found, for it was not the Author's intention.  Rev. 5 shows Jesus ascending into the throne room, sending down the Holy Spirit, and then taking the book from the Father's hand and immediately begin opening the seals. You wish to pull the first seal OUT of this context. Always remember, anyone can make the bible say anything if they are willing to pull verses out of their context.  Did you never read commentators?

Gill Commentary:  And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles, which were just now finishing, John being the last of them, who saw this vision; and the "horse" being a swift, majestic, and warlike creature, and fearless of opposition and war, may design the swift progress of the Gospel in the world, the majesty, power, and authority with which it came, and opposition it met with, and which was bore down before it; and its "white" colour may denote the purity of Gospel truths...

and he went forth, conquering and to conquer; in the ministration of the Gospel, which went forth, as did all the first ministers of it, from Jerusalem, to the several parts of the world

Matthew Henry Commentary:   A rider on a white horse. By the going forth of this white horse, a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations,

Barnes' Notes:  this refers to Christ and his church - to Christ and his ministers in spreading the gospel.

Benson Commentary:  And all these figurative representations of authority, government, success, and conquest, may be properly applied to the gospel and the kingdom of Christ, which was now beginning to spread far and wide...

James Durham Commentary: The Going forth of the gospel

Clarke's Commentary:  A white horse - Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

I am out of time. There are many more commentators, but these will have to suffice.  

You see, It is not just my idea: it comes from the context of the first seal, which is the vision of the throne room.  It was for John, a vision of his past: he was seeing a vision and was looking into the throne room of his past, seeing the throne room a time while Christ was still on earth. This is seen because Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father, where He WOULD HAVE BEEN in 95 AD.  Next, in the first search John watched that ended in failure, for one worthy to open the seals, John wrote, "no man was found."  This shows us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Then in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit (as the 7 Spirits of God) was still in the throne room, but gets sent down in chapter 5. So we see TIMING and the movement of time in these two chapters. In chapter 5 we see a change: suddenly someone was found: and Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room, having just ascended. So we know Jesus had just risen from the dead. The first thing Jesus does is take the book out of the hand of the Father, and begin opening the seals - around 32 AD. This is what the text shows us, and these commentators have understood this. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by iamlamad

[Alan Hales]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You stated we DISAPPEAR, but we do not, we DIE. If you chose to ignore the facts you can do so, that's on you, no flesh will enter Heaven.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible (BODY/FLESH) must put on incorruption(Spirit man), and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible(flesh) shall have put on incorruption(Spirit man), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

Like I stated, we are changed to a SPIRIT MAN and then we are Raptured to Heaven. FACT. 

1 Cor 15 isn't talking about our physical bodies, If you read it properly you'll see we will be changed. Vs48--53.  [V51]

Also see 1 Thess 4: 17.

You need to make up your mind, First you sais we won't disappear, Then you sais we will be raptured.

 

[Alan Hales]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken in your thinking - thinking that the 5th seal must be somewhere in the 70th week or in the "trib." The 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age! Stephen was one of the first. this seal was opened around 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended. It is the 6th seal that is the FIRST seal in our future. It is judgment. We are still in the age of grace.

I see that you are sincere, but you are sincerely wrong.  But then, so are millions. They all follow tradition. WHO started the tradition that the first seal is FUTURE?  I don't know.  What I do know is that the first seal was opened around 32 AD, EXACTLY as John shows it in chapters 4-6.  You want to find 2000 years somewhere in those verses, but it is not to be found, for it was not the Author's intention.  Rev. 5 shows Jesus ascending into the throne room, sending down the Holy Spirit, and then taking the book from the Father's hand and immediately begin opening the seals. You wish to pull the first seal OUT of this context. Always remember, anyone can make the bible say anything if they are willing to pull verses out of their context.  Did you never read commentators?

Gill Commentary:  And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles, which were just now finishing, John being the last of them, who saw this vision; and the "horse" being a swift, majestic, and warlike creature, and fearless of opposition and war, may design the swift progress of the Gospel in the world, the majesty, power, and authority with which it came, and opposition it met with, and which was bore down before it; and its "white" colour may denote the purity of Gospel truths...

and he went forth, conquering and to conquer; in the ministration of the Gospel, which went forth, as did all the first ministers of it, from Jerusalem, to the several parts of the world

Matthew Henry Commentary:   A rider on a white horse. By the going forth of this white horse, a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations,

Barnes' Notes:  this refers to Christ and his church - to Christ and his ministers in spreading the gospel.

Benson Commentary:  And all these figurative representations of authority, government, success, and conquest, may be properly applied to the gospel and the kingdom of Christ, which was now beginning to spread far and wide...

James Durham Commentary: The Going forth of the gospel

Clarke's Commentary:  A white horse - Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

I am out of time. There are many more commentators, but these will have to suffice.  

You see, It is not just my idea: it comes from the context of the first seal, which is the vision of the throne room.  It was for John, a vision of his past: he was seeing a vision and was looking into the throne room of his past, seeing the throne room a time while Christ was still on earth. This is seen because Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father, where He WOULD HAVE BEEN in 95 AD.  Next, in the first search John watched that ended in failure, for one worthy to open the seals, John wrote, "no man was found."  This shows us that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Then in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit (as the 7 Spirits of God) was still in the throne room, but gets sent down in chapter 5. So we see TIMING and the movement of time in these two chapters. In chapter 5 we see a change: suddenly someone was found: and Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room, having just ascended. So we know Jesus had just risen from the dead. The first thing Jesus does is take the book out of the hand of the Father, and begin opening the seals - around 32 AD. This is what the text shows us, and these commentators have understood this. 

You have no idea about the end times, Hence you own Un-Biblical beliefs.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

You have no idea about the end times, Hence you own Un-Biblical beliefs.

Ah! So because what I write differs from what you think, then I am wrong.  Sorry, but what I write is what John wrote, correctly understood.  You just believe what you have heard and/or been taught. 

Take a look at Rev. 5, the first few verses, where Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room, and sent the Holy Spirit down - and ask yourself WHEN? When did this happen?

Do you have a better explanation as to WHY Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4 - when John first saw into the throne room? We have a dozen verses that tell us that is where He should have been. Stephen SAW Him there.

Do you have a better explanation as to WHY "no man was found" in that first search John watched that ended in failure?

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended? 

Show us how you answer these questions!

Edited September 8, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You wrote: >>>This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22<<<

No, your interpretation of Scriptures by the letter is a mere conjecture and pure imagination, even a cunningly devised fable.  You are working with the letter of Scriptures, and not with the Spirit of Scriptures. You should agree that "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life".  God said to Jeremiah (God is a title, the Word is God, God is the Word, God is Spirit) :  He said that "he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" saith the Lord. 

God said more: "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?  Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He - God - saith, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

I don't think anyone here on this thread is claiming to be a prophet! We are all trying to understand end times scriptures. 

[Retrobyter]

On 8/22/2018 at 11:04 AM, iamlamad said:

I hope all the participants here know, Revelation is written in an order. Since John numbered so many things for sequencing, why would anyone suppose it is OUT of order? 

As I read it, Jesus  begins this book right where John was at the time, around 95 AD.  In chapter 21, we see John is beyond the thousand year reign of Christ, so far far into our future today.  It just makes sense then that somewhere between chapters 1 and chapters 21, is where the church is TODAY. 

I hope then that all the writers here will show us where they perceive the church is today in the book of Revelation. I am not interested in preterist thought - only those that believe much of Revelation is still future need answer. 

 

Next, I would like to see where everyone places the start of the Day of the Lord, and WHY. 

Next, where do people see the start of the 70th week and why.

Finally, where do people see the exact midpoint, and why.

Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week. 

With that said, John TELLS US where the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins: right at the 6th seal. 

Next, I see the 70th week beginning right at the 7th seal, and I see the midpoint right at the 7th trumpet. I see the week end at the 7th vial. therefore the entire week is marked by 7's. 

I find it amusing that people imagine they can move events around (rearranging) revelation to fit a theory. I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book AS WRITTEN. I find such a theory fits all end times scriptures.

Shabbat shalom, iamlamed.

Thanks for the chuckle! ? We can't even BEGIN to be on the same page from the first post! While some things may be written chronologically, others are written by priority. Still others are REPEATS of the same time period from a different perspective. We've got a LONG, LONG way to go before we're all on the same page!

[Alan Hales]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Ah! So because what I write differs from what you think, then I am wrong.  Sorry, but what I write is what John wrote, correctly understood.  You just believe what you have heard and/or been taught. 

Take a look at Rev. 5, the first few verses, where Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room, and sent the Holy Spirit down - and ask yourself WHEN? When did this happen?

Do you have a better explanation as to WHY Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4 - when John first saw into the throne room? We have a dozen verses that tell us that is where He should have been. Stephen SAW Him there.

Do you have a better explanation as to WHY "no man was found" in that first search John watched that ended in failure?

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended? 

Show us how you answer these questions!

You have twisted what John wrote. You have taken future events, and put them in the past. Every seal in Revelation is future.

Jesus didn't just appear, in Rev 5: DID He?. NO, He was there at the right hand of God, in v1. Just because Ch 4 doesn't mention Jesus at the throne, It doesn't mean H wasn't there.

AS for the Holy Spirit  being in the throne room, in Rev 4, If you knew the Bible, You would know that the Holy Spirit is everywhere at the same time. He is in Christians in one part of the world, and in Christians the other side of the world at the same time.

You are trying to understand the Bible with your natural mind whereas the things of God can only be discerned by the born again Christian's spirit.

1 Cor 2: 10--14.

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

1 Cor 15 isn't talking about our physical bodies, If you read it properly you'll see we will be changed. Vs48--53.  [V51]

Also see 1 Thess 4: 17.

You need to make up your mind, First you sais we won't disappear, Then you sais we will be raptured.

Thus you are not understanding what I am saying it seems. We as SPIRIT MEN go to be with the Lord in Heaven, the DEAD are raised first without CORRUPTION (with no Flesh body) then we who are ALIVE (meaning we have a corruptible FLESH BODY) will be changed (to a SPIRIT MAN who is not Corruptible because we have NO FLESH) in a flash/moment or twinkling of an eye !! 

All that above means is that WE DIE.......our Spirit man leaves our CORRUPTED FLESH BODY, but we as Spirit men are TAKEN TO HEAVEN, we don't sleep in the Grave like the rest of the dead did. 

And the Corruptible means flesh, the incorruptible means SPIRIT MAN.