Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

You have twisted what John wrote. You have taken future events, and put them in the past. Every seal in Revelation is future.

Jesus didn't just appear, in Rev 5: DID He?. NO, He was there at the right hand of God, in v1. Just because Ch 4 doesn't mention Jesus at the throne, It doesn't mean H wasn't there.

AS for the Holy Spirit  being in the throne room, in Rev 4, If you knew the Bible, You would know that the Holy Spirit is everywhere at the same time. He is in Christians in one part of the world, and in Christians the other side of the world at the same time.

You are trying to understand the Bible with your natural mind whereas the things of God can only be discerned by the born again Christian's spirit.

1 Cor 2: 10--14.

You must be reading with preconceived glasses, therefore not reading accurately what is written.  

Show is the verse where Jesus is seen in the throne room in chapter 4. No one else has found Him. Do you imagine that If He was there, John would have MISSED HIM? No, the truth is, HE WAS NOT THERE, but suddenly appeared there in chapter 5. Go back and read it again! 

Then, in your theory, you have not explained why Jesus was not found in that first search for one worthy, that John watched, that ended in failure. WHY was Jesus not found in that search? 

You are trying to understand the Bible with your natural mind whereas the things of God can only be discerned by the born again Christian's spirit.

Now why would you make such a statement? I can tell you why: because you disagree with me and you suppose you are right and I am wrong.

When I was studying this portion of Revelation, I got stuck on one verse. It was about the apostle John weeping much. This bugged me enough that I started bugging God about it: “God, why would You include this in your wonderful book? Why did we need to know that John wept much?” Finally, He answered me: “It shows timing.”

I spent at least two weeks trying to understand “timing” from this passage, and just could not see it anywhere. After these two weeks or so, God spoke again and said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I searched and could not see any “movement” of time.  I kept asking Him for help. Finally, God spoke: “I am going to ask you three questions about this passage; until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of the vision.” Here are His three questions.

1. “When John first saw into the throne room, why didn’t he immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father? There are many scriptures that say  that is where I should be. Stephen saw Me at the right hand of the Father years before John saw this vision.”

2. “Why did the first search that John watched to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure? If you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy. Why was I not found worthy at the first search? John wept because that search ended in failure.”

3. “Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?”

As each of these questions was asked, I answered, “Lord, I don’t know the answer to this question.”

It took me another two or three weeks of meditating on chapters 4 & 5, and HIS HELP before I came to understand. First, HE had to get "history lesson" into my mind. Those were HIS words, not mine. The truth is, this was a vision of the past. John was looking into the throne room during a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. Then time moved and Jesus DID rise from the dead, and then ascended. 

The truth then is that I was NOT using my natural mind. The truth is, Jesus Christ, the head of the church TAUGHT me what HIS intent was in these verses. 

Of course you are free to doubt this - but you will do so at your own risk. The truth is, this is what chapters 4 & 5 are telling us. The truth is, Jesus was NOT in the throne room in verse 5:1 or 5:2, or 5:3 or 5:4, or 5:5. He suddenly appeared in 5:6. Why? Because He was ON EARTH. And after He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended, then He DID ASCEND. And John saw the moment He entered the throne room. Believe it, for it is what John wrote.

Next, your argument of the Holy Spirit fails also. Yes, we all understand He is everywhere. Yet, He ascended on Jesus as a dove: in one place at one time. And Jesus Himself said that when He ascended He would send the Holy Spirit down - which is exactly what we see in Rev. 5:6

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamed.

Thanks for the chuckle! ? We can't even BEGIN to be on the same page from the first post! While some things may be written chronologically, others are written by priority. Still others are REPEATS of the same time period from a different perspective. We've got a LONG, LONG way to go before we're all on the same page!

That is YOUR theory. I disagree with it. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

That is YOUR theory. I disagree with it. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Well OF COURSE you do! That's what I'm talking about! LOL!

Look, if you and I can't start out with some form of agreement on SOMETHING, then the whole attempt at communication breaks down from the start!

Edited September 9, 2018 by Retrobyter

[Alan Hales]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You must be reading with preconceived glasses, therefore not reading accurately what is written.  

Show is the verse where Jesus is seen in the throne room in chapter 4. No one else has found Him. Do you imagine that If He was there, John would have MISSED HIM? No, the truth is, HE WAS NOT THERE, but suddenly appeared there in chapter 5. Go back and read it again! 

Then, in your theory, you have not explained why Jesus was not found in that first search for one worthy, that John watched, that ended in failure. WHY was Jesus not found in that search? 

You are trying to understand the Bible with your natural mind whereas the things of God can only be discerned by the born again Christian's spirit.

Now why would you make such a statement? I can tell you why: because you disagree with me and you suppose you are right and I am wrong.

When I was studying this portion of Revelation, I got stuck on one verse. It was about the apostle John weeping much. This bugged me enough that I started bugging God about it: “God, why would You include this in your wonderful book? Why did we need to know that John wept much?” Finally, He answered me: “It shows timing.”

I spent at least two weeks trying to understand “timing” from this passage, and just could not see it anywhere. After these two weeks or so, God spoke again and said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I searched and could not see any “movement” of time.  I kept asking Him for help. Finally, God spoke: “I am going to ask you three questions about this passage; until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of the vision.” Here are His three questions.

1. “When John first saw into the throne room, why didn’t he immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father? There are many scriptures that say  that is where I should be. Stephen saw Me at the right hand of the Father years before John saw this vision.”

2. “Why did the first search that John watched to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure? If you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy. Why was I not found worthy at the first search? John wept because that search ended in failure.”

3. “Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?”

As each of these questions was asked, I answered, “Lord, I don’t know the answer to this question.”

It took me another two or three weeks of meditating on chapters 4 & 5, and HIS HELP before I came to understand. First, HE had to get "history lesson" into my mind. Those were HIS words, not mine. The truth is, this was a vision of the past. John was looking into the throne room during a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. Then time moved and Jesus DID rise from the dead, and then ascended. 

The truth then is that I was NOT using my natural mind. The truth is, Jesus Christ, the head of the church TAUGHT me what HIS intent was in these verses. 

Of course you are free to doubt this - but you will do so at your own risk. The truth is, this is what chapters 4 & 5 are telling us. The truth is, Jesus was NOT in the throne room in verse 5:1 or 5:2, or 5:3 or 5:4, or 5:5. He suddenly appeared in 5:6. Why? Because He was ON EARTH. And after He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended, then He DID ASCEND. And John saw the moment He entered the throne room. Believe it, for it is what John wrote.

Next, your argument of the Holy Spirit fails also. Yes, we all understand He is everywhere. Yet, He ascended on Jesus as a dove: in one place at one time. And Jesus Himself said that when He ascended He would send the Holy Spirit down - which is exactly what we see in Rev. 5:6

Just because the Bible doesn't mention Jesus being in the thrown room, It doesn't mean He wasn't there. You are just giving pure speculations. Jesus is on the the right hand of God, Act 7: 55. Eph 1: 20.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Alan Hales

[Alan Hales]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

That is YOUR theory. I disagree with it. 

I know you disagree with the Bible, As your relies have proved.

[iamlamad]

On 9/8/2018 at 4:34 AM, Alan Hales said:

You have no idea about the end times, Hence you own Un-Biblical beliefs.

You say that only because you disagree with what I write. And it doing so, you are disagreeing with scripture. 

And as shown above, you are disagreeing with many commentators. 

[iamlamad]

9 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

I know you disagree with the Bible, As your relies have proved.

If you don't mind, I believe I will follow Jesus Christ, the head of the church, rather than your theories. 

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

Just because the Bible doesn't mention Jesus being in the thrown room, It doesn't mean He wasn't there. You are just giving pure speculations. Jesus is on the the right hand of God, Act 7: 55. Eph 1: 20.

The point you are missing is, HE WAS NOT THERE while He was on the earth and under the earth. 

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I know you disagree with the Bible, As your relies have proved. - Alan Hales

If you don't mind, I believe I will follow Jesus Christ, the head of the church, rather than your theories. 

Shalom, you two.

LOL! ROFL! You two are cut from the same cloth! You really do deserve each other! Thanks for the humor, but this thread is pointless.

Shalom, and good bye. May God bless you both as far as you can stretch within your limited boxes.

[1to3]

Matthew 5:9-12

⁹ Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
¹⁰ Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹ Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. ¹² Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.