Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[Steve Conley]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:18 AM, Alan Hales said:

If you knew the Bible, You would know that the Church HAS to go [And IT DOES GO] before the Anti-Christ can come. I have given you Biblical proof of the fact.

Where does Mat 24 say the Church goes through the tribulation??. Jesus is talking to the Jews in Matt 24. Vs 29--31 is the physical coming of Jesus NOT the rapture, Please note, The Angels gather God's people, V 31. Whereas at the  pre-trib rapture, Jesus comes for His people,

Jn 14: 2--3. 1 Thess 4: 14--17.

In relation to the coming great tribulation period, Jesus told us to watch and pray that we'll escape  it and be with Him. Lk 21: 36. And Paul said we aren't appointed to the coming tribulation  1 Thess 5: 9. So you can see it's you who twists Paul's And Jesus words.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, I used to be where you are in your eschatological understanding. For thirty years I taught the classic pre-trib model for the rapture alongside classic dispensationalism. From what I have read of your posts, that is your position. Like I once did, you appear to hold these positions to be fundamental and orthodox, and see any deviation from classic pretribulational dispensationalism as unbiblical. Dispensationalism was the system of understanding that guided my initial instruction in the Holy Scriptures. Throughout my early years, all of the Word of God was viewed through the pre-trib dispensational lens so it colored my understanding in nearly every area of Scriptural study. However, a few years ago God began to open my eyes to the consistent and clear teaching of the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles that there is only one future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is at His initial arrival that we are gathered to Him in the clouds and taken to stand before the throne of God in Heaven before His wrath falls upon the unbelieving earth dwellers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a blanket repudiation of all the tenants of pretribulationism or dispensationalism. There are many truths to be found in those two connected systems. Let me name a few. Maybe the most important is a "literal hermeneutic" which stands against an allegorical interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Scriptures should be interpreted literally unless the context shows that the author was using a metaphor, allegory, or one of the many other grammatical devices available. Another truth properly understood is the fact that the church will not experience the wrath of God when it is poured out upon the unbelieving earthdwellers at the end of the age. Pre-trib rightly understands that we are kept from God's wrath as opposed to being kept through God's wrath as the post-tribbers teach. However, there is much false assumption, circular reasoning, and error in pretribulational dispensationalism as it is classically taught.

In the past I was a strong advocate of pretribulational dispensationalism and even considered myself to be a master of the subject; I'm quite certain that there isn't much in the way of evidence that I haven't seen. So, I believe I am more than qualified to point out the problems and scriptural conflicts with that system.

I'll will start with the proposition that you make in your first sentence above, "that the church has to go before the antichrist can come".

That is the argument of dispensationalism as systematized by J.N. Darby. That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that church (the believing Jew and believing Gentile in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.)

Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews.

God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfillment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfillment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them.

Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded.

Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis=persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Christ's name sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24).

The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect. It is also true that God having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ.

Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ.

The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29.

In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth He says those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The age-old adage is, "to be forewarned is to be forearmed". With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds.

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation.

Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians. They are the last generation of the church prior to Christ's return.

Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect.

This post is already too long, so I will stop here. It is my desire Alan, that you grasp these truths and come to look for the Saviour's return with true understanding. There are many beliefs effected by these few corrections that will no doubt need to be modified to remain faithful to the Holy Scriptures. Let the Word be true and every man a liar.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Alan Hales]

14 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, have you considered Luke 21:28 in light of the truth that you proclaimed above?

Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Redemption has been promised to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, those who have put their faith and trust in His person and work for eternal salvation. Our redemption takes place at His appearing in the clouds with the holy angels when we are resurrected or changed and raptured and taken to the Father's house to be forever with Christ.

Have you noticed what "these things" are in the context of Christ's statement in Luke 21:28?

These things are the cosmic signs, which were promised by the prophets to precede the day of the Lord, and the response of the nations toward the signs.

Each of the previous 3 verses (Luke 21:25-27) provide context and detail concerning the events which should signal the persecuted believer to "look up" and "lift up your head" (an idiom meaning: be encouraged) because our redemption (when we see Christ at the rapture) is nigh (near in time, imminent, could happen any moment).

Cosmic signs and their effect upon the earth and the nations

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Lost mankind's response to those signs

Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Jesus and the mighty appearing in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven

Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The Bible doesn't teach a secret rapture, it teaches a glorious appearing and our gathering unto Him at that time.

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

You are getting the Jews during the tribulation period, Mixed up with ALREADY born again saved Christians that are in heaven at that time.

Christians are ALREADY saved, NOT waiting to be saved.  Rom 5: 1, Justification means we are saved. NOTE, "BEING Justified" We HAVE peace through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1: 7 "In whom we HAVE redemption",, NOT waiting for it.

Also see, Col 1: 13--14. 1 Pet 1: 18-19, & 22--23. Eph 2: 8--9, V8, WE ARE SAVED. Eph 2: 1, & v5. "Quickened" means to be made alive, "Born again".

Your opinions go against the Bible.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Alan Hales

[n2thelight]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For all we know, since you posted no scripture, you are using your imagination.  However, you did give one thing that will happen at the 7th trumpet: Satan is kicked out of heaven. GOOD!  Now show us a verse from Revelation chapter 11 or 12 where Jesus comes.  That is the verse we want to see. Then if you can show us a verse that ties His coming with the DAY - so we know they happen at the same moment in time, that will be great. 

The ball is now in your court. 

Didn't post any scripture as I assumed you at least had that part.

Only thing I'm asking is, will satan  get kicked out of Heaven before you all are raptured simple!

[Alan Hales]

3 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, I used to be where you are in your eschatological understanding. For thirty years I taught the classic pre-trib model for the rapture alongside classic dispensationalism. From what I have read of your posts, that is your position. Like I once did, you appear to hold these positions to be fundamental and orthodox, and see any deviation from classic pretribulational dispensationalism as unbiblical. Dispensationalism was the system of understanding that guided my initial instruction in the Holy Scriptures. Throughout my early years, all of the Word of God was viewed through the pre-trib dispensational lens so it colored my understanding in nearly every area of Scriptural study. However, a few years ago God began to open my eyes to the consistent and clear teaching of the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles that there is only one future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is at His initial arrival that we are gathered to Him in the clouds and taken to stand before the throne of God in Heaven before His wrath falls upon the unbelieving earth dwellers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a blanket repudiation of all the tenants of pretribulationism or dispensationalism. There are many truths to be found in those two connected systems. Let me name a few. Maybe the most important is a "literal hermeneutic" which stands against an allegorical interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Scriptures should be interpreted literally unless the context shows that the author was using a metaphor, allegory, or one of the many other grammatical devices available. Another truth properly understood is the fact that the church will not experience the wrath of God when it is poured out upon the unbelieving earthdwellers at the end of the age. Pre-trib rightly understands that we are kept from God's wrath as opposed to being kept through God's wrath as the post-tribbers teach. However, there is much false assumption, circular reasoning, and error in pretribulational dispensationalism as it is classically taught.

In the past I was a strong advocate of pretribulational dispensationalism and even considered myself to be a master of the subject; I'm quite certain that there isn't much in the way of evidence that I haven't seen. So, I believe I am more than qualified to point out the problems and scriptural conflicts with that system.

I'll will start with the proposition that you make in your first sentence above, "that the church has to go before the antichrist can come".

That is the argument of dispensationalism as systematized by J.N. Darby. That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that church (the believing Jew and believing Gentile in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.)

Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews.

God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfillment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfillment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them.

Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded.

Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis=persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Christ's name sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24).

The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect. It is also true that God having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ.

Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ.

The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29.

In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth He says those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The age-old adage is, "to be forewarned is to be forearmed". With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds.

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation.

Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians. They are the last generation of the church prior to Christ's return.

Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect.

This post is already too long, so I will stop here. It is my desire Alan, that you grasp these truths and come to look for the Saviour's return with true understanding. There are many beliefs effected by these few corrections that will no doubt need to be modified to remain faithful to the Holy Scriptures. Let the Word be true and every man a liar.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

So, You mean you used to believe the Bible BUT now you DON'T. And once you stop believing the Bible, You start giving your own opinions, Just like you do.

It's GOD who taught the pre-trib rapture, NOT Darby or anyone else. You have to know when the "Elect", is talking about the elect Jews and when it's talking about the elect Church, And tribulationist get the elect JEWS mixed up with the elect Church, [The born again Christians]

Those scriptures that you give are about the tribulation period, which the Church DOESN'T go through.

In relation to the tribulation period, Jesus said "Watch and pray that we will ESCAPE it and be with Him. And Paul, [Inspired by Jesus] said.

We AREN'T appointed to wrath, but to be delivered. The wrath, is both from the devil against those who reject the mark of the beast. Rev 12:  12.  

Then from God, against them who accept the mark of the beast. Rev 15: 7. Rev 16: 1.

If you notice, After the tribulation , The Angels gather those who get saved during the tribulation period. Matt 24: 29--31, [V31.

Whereas at the pre-trib rapture, Jesus comes for us, Jn 14: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 17. Matt 24: 31, and Jn 14 1--3 & 1 Thess 4: 17, are two different events.

As I said, Once you stop believing the Bible, you start to believe your own opinions.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Didn't post any scripture as I assumed you at least had that part.

Only thing I'm asking is, will satan  get kicked out of Heaven before you all are raptured simple!

Sorry, but I don't use my imagination; I have to see it in black and white. In 1 Thes. 4 & 5, Paul shows us that His coming will first initiate the dead in Christ rising, then those alive being caught up, and then the Day of the Lord and His wrath, in that order. The point is, if something comes before something else, they cannot possibly happen at the same time or be the same thing. It is not a scriptural word, but it gets the point across: Jesus coming will "trigger:" the rapture events, the dead in Christ rising will trigger the great earthquake (Paul's sudden destruction) and God through John tells us that earthquake (6th seal)  is the start of His wrath and the DAY. We find that earthquake at the 6th seal. At this pretrib coming Jesus does not touch down, but is hidden in a cloud in the air. The church is then escorted to their mansions in heaven.

AFter the 6th seal start of the DAY, then the 7th seal is opened to start the WEEK. Finally, at the midpoint of the week, after all the trumpet judgments, Satan is cast down - AT the 7th trumpet that will mark the midpoint of the week. 

All this is written in words, in black and white and any good reader can read about it: Revelation chapter 6 to chapter 12.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, I used to be where you are in your eschatological understanding. For thirty years I taught the classic pre-trib model for the rapture alongside classic dispensationalism. From what I have read of your posts, that is your position. Like I once did, you appear to hold these positions to be fundamental and orthodox, and see any deviation from classic pretribulational dispensationalism as unbiblical. Dispensationalism was the system of understanding that guided my initial instruction in the Holy Scriptures. Throughout my early years, all of the Word of God was viewed through the pre-trib dispensational lens so it colored my understanding in nearly every area of Scriptural study. However, a few years ago God began to open my eyes to the consistent and clear teaching of the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles that there is only one future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is at His initial arrival that we are gathered to Him in the clouds and taken to stand before the throne of God in Heaven before His wrath falls upon the unbelieving earth dwellers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a blanket repudiation of all the tenants of pretribulationism or dispensationalism. There are many truths to be found in those two connected systems. Let me name a few. Maybe the most important is a "literal hermeneutic" which stands against an allegorical interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Scriptures should be interpreted literally unless the context shows that the author was using a metaphor, allegory, or one of the many other grammatical devices available. Another truth properly understood is the fact that the church will not experience the wrath of God when it is poured out upon the unbelieving earthdwellers at the end of the age. Pre-trib rightly understands that we are kept from God's wrath as opposed to being kept through God's wrath as the post-tribbers teach. However, there is much false assumption, circular reasoning, and error in pretribulational dispensationalism as it is classically taught.

In the past I was a strong advocate of pretribulational dispensationalism and even considered myself to be a master of the subject; I'm quite certain that there isn't much in the way of evidence that I haven't seen. So, I believe I am more than qualified to point out the problems and scriptural conflicts with that system.

I'll will start with the proposition that you make in your first sentence above, "that the church has to go before the antichrist can come".

That is the argument of dispensationalism as systematized by J.N. Darby. That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that church (the believing Jew and believing Gentile in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.)

Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews.

God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfillment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfillment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them.

Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded.

Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis=persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Christ's name sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24).

The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect. It is also true that God having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ.

Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ.

The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29.

In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth He says those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The age-old adage is, "to be forewarned is to be forearmed". With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds.

Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation.

Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians. They are the last generation of the church prior to Christ's return.

Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect.

This post is already too long, so I will stop here. It is my desire Alan, that you grasp these truths and come to look for the Saviour's return with true understanding. There are many beliefs effected by these few corrections that will no doubt need to be modified to remain faithful to the Holy Scriptures. Let the Word be true and every man a liar.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

It was a long post, and a good portion of it is truth. But you have made the same classical error that Rosenthal and Van Kampen made: not realizing or understanding that the cosmic signs will be see TWICE: first as the sign for the start of the DAY  - as seen at the 6h seal and in Joel 2 - and then again over 7 years later as the sign for His coming - as seen in Matthew 24 and in Joel 3 - and these signs are different. 

The sign for the DAY will be a blood red moon: this means the moon is visible and people SEE it. On the other hand, the sign for His coming is total darkness: neither the sun or the moon will be seen. We can only see the moon if the sunlight is reflected off of it. IF God causes the sun not to be seen, no one will see the moon.

Then there is the timing issue! This theory forces the entire "tribulation" ("After the tribulation of those days") into the first 6 seals. This is absurd and not at all the intent of the author. Jesus Himself said that the days of GT would come after the midpoint of the week. The midpoint in Revelation is in chapter 11. The worst days of GT will not start until after chapter 14 in Revelation, where God warns people not to take the mark. OF COURSE that warning will come before the mark is created.

If we just take John at His word, since it was a vision seen in heaven by our God, we see God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, and continuing on through the entire week, and we see Satan's wrath beginning at the midpoint when he is cast down. Then, during the last half of the week, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent - happening at the same time. In fact, when Satan's wrath is at it peak, and the killing machine of the Beast and his armies are at its peak - Then God pours out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days of GT.

You should have stayed with pretrib. It is the truth of scripture.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, have you considered Luke 21:28 in light of the truth that you proclaimed above?

Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Redemption has been promised to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, those who have put their faith and trust in His person and work for eternal salvation. Our redemption takes place at His appearing in the clouds with the holy angels when we are resurrected or changed and raptured and taken to the Father's house to be forever with Christ.

Have you noticed what "these things" are in the context of Christ's statement in Luke 21:28?

These things are the cosmic signs, which were promised by the prophets to precede the day of the Lord, and the response of the nations toward the signs.

Each of the previous 3 verses (Luke 21:25-27) provide context and detail concerning the events which should signal the persecuted believer to "look up" and "lift up your head" (an idiom meaning: be encouraged) because our redemption (when we see Christ at the rapture) is nigh (near in time, imminent, could happen any moment).

Cosmic signs and their effect upon the earth and the nations

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Lost mankind's response to those signs

Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Jesus and the mighty appearing in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven

Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The Bible doesn't teach a secret rapture, it teaches a glorious appearing and our gathering unto Him at that time.

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

When we consider Luke, we must also consider Jesus discourse in the other gospels. When we consider all that Jesus said, the "signs" are more than just the cosmic signs. One HUGE sign was Israel becoming a nation once again. And another sign tied to that one: earthquakes in divers places. These small earthquakes, 3, 4, 5 on the scale,  began shortly after Israel became a nation.

Earthquakes 4 to 6 on the Richter scale                
................4 to 6..1 to 6    Richter
2000 to    2010....117859..249995    
1990 to    2000....75841...164993    
1980 to    1990....52542...78582    
1970 to    1980....29330...34745    
1960 to    1970....1756....1756    (no small quakes)    
1950 to    1960....1599....1599    (no small quakes)
1940 to    1950....0.......0    

When we consider all the signs Jesus gave us, we see that many of them are CHURCH AGE signs. And as we get closer to the end, these signs come more frequently.

Then we consider Jesus hidden in a cloud. Is this a glorious coming? How can it be when He remains hidden in a cloud?  When we consider all the end times scriptures, the only conclusion can be a pretrib rapture - exactly what Paul shows us. 
 

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Correction:  For the umpteenth time, I ask unto you: What is the message of the seventh trump? It is written.  (Note: da sétima trombeta is in Portuguese language)

As you and I know, the message is there for all to see and read: it is the time that the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. And it is the signal Michael has been waiting for, to take Satan down from the heavenlies. 

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

So, You mean you used to believe the Bible BUT now you DON'T. And once you stop believing the Bible, You start giving your own opinions, Just like you do.

It's GOD who taught the pre-trib rapture, NOT Darby or anyone else. You have to know when the "Elect", is talking about the elect Jews and when it's talking about the elect Church, And tribulationist get the elect JEWS mixed up with the elect Church, [The born again Christians]

Those scriptures that you give are about the tribulation period, which the Church DOESN'T go through.

In relation to the tribulation period, Jesus said "Watch and pray that we will ESCAPE it and be with Him. And Paul, [Inspired by Jesus] said.

We AREN'T appointed to wrath, but to be delivered. The wrath, is both from the devil against those who reject the mark of the beast. Rev 12:  12.  

Then from God, against them who accept the mark of the beast. Rev 15: 7. Rev 16: 1.

If you notice, After the tribulation , The Angels gather those who get saved during the tribulation period. Matt 24: 29--31, [V31.

Whereas at the pre-trib rapture, Jesus comes for us, Jn 14: 1--3. 1 Thess 4: 17. Matt 24: 31, and Jn 14 1--3 & 1 Thess 4: 17, are two different events.

As I said, Once you stop believing the Bible, you start to believe your own opinions.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, I misjudged you. I thought you might be interested in truth, but it appears that you are blind to your own eisegesis and circular reasoning. I was blind once also, but God had mercy upon me and allowed me to see that the foundation of the pre-trib system is made up of misunderstandings, assumptions, inferences, and the desperate wresting of Scriptural texts. It all began when I wanted a better, more thorough, understanding of the day of the Lord. It was then that God removed the blinders created by pretribulational dispensationalism.

The Lord confronted me with an unambiguous statement of the prophet Joel, one that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."(Joel 2:31) Joel says that a notable cosmic sign would appear prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is when Christ's eschatological wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving earth dwellers who worship the Beast. The fact that Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation, lets us know that God's wrath is not being poured out during the great tribulation. This is also what John sees in detail when he was taken in spirit into the future to witness the events surrounding the second parousia of Christ. John identifies the cosmic sign taking place after the opening of the sixth seal. This means that the wrath of God is not being poured out during the seals as I once thought. God's wrath comes after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel, not before or during it.

Paul clearly identifies two periods of tribulation at the end of the age. First is the present persecution of the Church and Israel that will reach an unprecedented level in scope and severity right prior to Christ's return to gather His own unto Himself and the second is the unmixed wrath of God poured out upon our persecutors after those of us who are alive and remain are rescued.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Whether or not you heed the words of the Holy Scriptures, if you live long enough you will cast aside the pre-trib system as a misguided falsehood when you see the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem and the daily sacrifice and oblation taking place. Or if you recognize Elijah who must come before the day of the Lord. Or if you understand and see the covenant confirmed with many for seven years. However, if you are oblivious to all these, you no doubt will be awakened when the Beast stands in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God (the abomination of desolation) and all the world is required to take his mark. You will have a choice then, do you save yourself from the sword (decapitation) or starvation (cannot buy or sell) or do you remain faithful to Christ unto death. That is a test that will really show what you have, whether you are only a professor or are indeed a possessor of the salvation only found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

We are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord that is true (1Thes 5:9, 2-3), however, there is no great escape from the violent persecution to come upon the last generation of the church.

Are you ready to lay down your life for Christ or are you one of these prosperity gospel preachers who preach glory without suffering. "All they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (the Apostle Paul to Timothy).

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. (1Co 16:22)

By the way, there is only one future parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Parousia means arrival and continuing presence)

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It was a long post, and a good portion of it is truth. But you have made the same classical error that Rosenthal and Van Kampen made: not realizing or understanding that the cosmic signs will be see TWICE: first as the sign for the start of the DAY  - as seen at the 6h seal and in Joel 2 - and then again over 7 years later as the sign for His coming - as seen in Matthew 24 and in Joel 3 - and these signs are different. 

The sign for the DAY will be a blood red moon: this means the moon is visible and people SEE it. On the other hand, the sign for His coming is total darkness: neither the sun or the moon will be seen. We can only see the moon if the sunlight is reflected off of it. IF God causes the sun not to be seen, no one will see the moon.

Then there is the timing issue! This theory forces the entire "tribulation" ("After the tribulation of those days") into the first 6 seals. This is absurd and not at all the intent of the author. Jesus Himself said that the days of GT would come after the midpoint of the week. The midpoint in Revelation is in chapter 11. The worst days of GT will not start until after chapter 14 in Revelation, where God warns people not to take the mark. OF COURSE that warning will come before the mark is created.

If we just take John at His word, since it was a vision seen in heaven by our God, we see God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, and continuing on through the entire week, and we see Satan's wrath beginning at the midpoint when he is cast down. Then, during the last half of the week, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent - happening at the same time. In fact, when Satan's wrath is at it peak, and the killing machine of the Beast and his armies are at its peak - Then God pours out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days of GT.

You should have stayed with pretrib. It is the truth of scripture.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, it appears that you are not a classic pre-tribber. Classic pre-tribbers fail to see that God's wrath doesn't begin until after the sixth seal. In fact, it doesn't begin until the first trumpet judgement. I commend you for noticing that truth. However, you have one great glaring problem, you have God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful martyrs, the tribulation saints as you call them. God forbid, let it not be so. That is preposterous, God's wrath is never focused upon His own. His action has always been to remove His own before His wrath is poured out. Jesus gave us two great examples of that very thing in Noah and Lot.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The day God's wrath begins is the day of our rescue.

Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We are kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God's wrath. The hour of temptation, since it is focussed upon the earth dwellers, is God's day of the Lord wrath. The earth dwellers is a technical term referring to the unbelieving who worship the Beast and persecute the saints. It is they who will be caught by surprise at Christ's revelation, not us.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Praise Jesus Christ