Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

Your problem is, You go by your own opinions, Instead of what the Bible says. I have given you Biblical proof that the Church goes to heaven before the tribulation starts.

[1] You have miss-understood Rev 4, Because it's not saying that rapture has already happened, It's a revelation of what happens AFTER the rapture.

[2] John's revelation wasn't looking into PAST.

[3]You DID contradict your self.

[4]I do believe the 1st seal is AFTER the Church is in heaven.

That is absolutely wrong - I go by the written word correctly understood. 

Please redo  this "biblical proof" as it seems I did not receive it. Oh, if you were meaning Rev. 4:1, that is NOT proof. It may seem so in your mind, but it is not. If you want biblical proof, it is found in chapters 4 & 5. 

Please, answer the 3 questions?  Or will you continue to write your preconceptions that are not found in scripture?

If you ignore chapters 4 & 5 you can pick any possible time for the first seal, and any possible meaning, for you will be pulling it out of its 1st century context.  By the way, are you scared of those three questions?  the correct answers will solve our differences here.

 

Please show where I contradicted myself. I don't think I did.

Edited September 21, 2018 by iamlamad

[Guest 1sheep]

7 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

"Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?"

I dunno; I usually start my day when I wake up (with a Pepsi and some breakfast sausages...).

Haha..I start my day with fresh ground coffee! 

[Steve Conley]

18 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

Your problem is, You go by your own opinions, Instead of what the Bible says. I have given you Biblical proof that the Church goes to heaven before the tribulation starts.

[1] You have miss-understood Rev 4, Because it's not saying that rapture has already happened, It's a revelation of what happens AFTER the rapture.

[2] John's revelation wasn't looking into PAST.

[3]You DID contradict your self.

[4]I do believe the 1st seal is AFTER the Church is in heaven.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, your problem is that you go by your own opinions, instead of what the Bible says. All I have given you is the explicit statements of the Word of God. You confuse a system that you have adopted to explain the statements that you find in the Bible, with the text itself. If something doesn't fit into your system, even if it is a quotation from the Bible of explicit nature, you cry "you are making God a liar". Your understanding when it comes to the timing of the catching up of the saints is in conflict with the teaching of Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. Below are statements of truth concerning the timing of Christ's return and the events which surround it. I will gladly provide justification for any that you challenge.

• It is true that great tribulation (unparalleled persecution of the church and Israel) begins in the middle of the seventieth week.
• It is true that great tribulation is the persecution of the church (the elect) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet and their followers; it is not God's tribulation upon those who had persecuted the Church and Israel.
• It is true that the seven mentions of 3 1/2 years (1260 days; 42 months; time, times, and the dividing of time) and the mention of 1290 and 1335 days all refer roughly to the second half of the seventieth week.
• It is true that Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the week by Michael and his angels and that Satan's disposition is said to be, "having great wrath" at that time.
• It is true that the Beast (man of sin) is revealed in the middle of the week after Michael, the restrainer, stands aside permitting his revelation through the dragon (Satan) giving him power.
• It is true that the Beast after he is revealed in the middle of the week continues 42 months before he is defeated and cast alive into a lake of fire.
• It is true that the saints are given into the hand of the Beast until those who remain alive are rescued when Christ cuts short the great tribulation by His return.
• It is true that what John sees when the seven seals are opened comes before the 7 trumpet judgements, and the 7 trumpet judgements come before the 7 vial judgements.
• It is true that as the seals are opened one by one John sees various events and happenings upon the earth and in heaven which he recorded for us to know.
• It is true that no described activity of the seventieth week is said to be unprecedented until great tribulation begins in the middle of the week.
• It is true that at the opening of the fifth seal the vengeance or wrath of God has not yet fallen upon the earth dwellers.
• It is true that the return of Jesus Christ and therefore the day of the Lord, happens sometime after the sixth seal is opened.
• It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that Joel prophesied would come prior to the great and terrible day of the Lord.
• It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the earth-dwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) hiding from the impending wrath of the Lamb as described by Isaiah in chapter two of his prophecy.
• It is true that Jesus identifies this cosmic sign and says it comes immediately after the great tribulation.
• It is true that Jesus says that His return in the clouds with glory and the holy angels follows the appearance of the cosmic sign.
• It is true that at that time there shall be a gathering to Christ of all the saved involving the first resurrection.
• It is true that the first stroke of God's wrath, upon the day of the Lord, comes after the seventh seal is opened, there is a half hour of silence in heaven, and the first trumpet is blown.
• It is true that the church will not experience the wrath of God but will be taken from the earth before it is poured out.
• It is true that God's wrath falls suddenly upon the earthdwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) the very day that the church is raptured.
• It is true that the church finds rest from persecution the very day that God's wrath falls upon their persecutors.
• It is true that the church, including the saints who experienced great tribulation, are seen in heaven before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured in Rev 7:9-17.

Each of these statements is supported by the clear declarations of the Prophets, our Lord, and the Apostles. Each is easily defended.

There are many ways to demonstrate that the great tribulation starts in the middle of the week and the day of the Lord only begins after those believers who are alive and remain are raptured out at Christ's second coming. Find two below.

1) Jesus states clearly that great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation takes place, and Daniel tells us that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

2) Paul says that the falling away (a notable departure from the faith) and the revelation of the man of sin in the temple must happen before the day of Christ can come.

The day of Christ from verse two and three below is further defined in verse one. It is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. It is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with his Church. The day of the Lord is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. Both days begin at His singular second coming (parousia = His arrival and continuing presence).

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Before the wrath of God on the day of the Lord can begin, the revelation of the Beast and the apostasia must take place.

Praise be to Jesus Christ

Edited September 22, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Alan Hales]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That is absolutely wrong - I go by the written word correctly understood. 

Please redo  this "biblical proof" as it seems I did not receive it. Oh, if you were meaning Rev. 4:1, that is NOT proof. It may seem so in your mind, but it is not. If you want biblical proof, it is found in chapters 4 & 5. 

Please, answer the 3 questions?  Or will you continue to write your preconceptions that are not found in scripture?

If you ignore chapters 4 & 5 you can pick any possible time for the first seal, and any possible meaning, for you will be pulling it out of its 1st century context.  By the way, are you scared of those three questions?  the correct answers will solve our differences here.

 

Please show where I contradicted myself. I don't think I did.

What were the 3 questions, So I can answer them and prove you wrong?

Edited September 22, 2018 by Alan Hales

[Alan Hales]

11 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, your problem is that you go by your own opinions, instead of what the Bible says. All I have given you is the explicit statements of the Word of God. You confuse a system that you have adopted to explain the statements that you find in the Bible, with the text itself. If something doesn't fit into your system, even if it is a quotation from the Bible of explicit nature, you cry "you are making God a liar". Your understanding when it comes to the timing of the catching up of the saints is in conflict with the teaching of Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. Below are statements of truth concerning the timing of Christ's return and the events which surround it. I will gladly provide justification for any that you challenge.

• It is true that great tribulation (unparalleled persecution of the church and Israel) begins in the middle of the seventieth week.
• It is true that great tribulation is the persecution of the church (the elect) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet and their followers; it is not God's tribulation upon those who had persecuted the Church and Israel.
• It is true that the seven mentions of 3 1/2 years (1260 days; 42 months; time, times, and the dividing of time) and the mention of 1290 and 1335 days all refer roughly to the second half of the seventieth week.
• It is true that Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the week by Michael and his angels and that Satan's disposition is said to be, "having great wrath" at that time.
• It is true that the Beast (man of sin) is revealed in the middle of the week after Michael, the restrainer, stands aside permitting his revelation through the dragon (Satan) giving him power.
• It is true that the Beast after he is revealed in the middle of the week continues 42 months before he is defeated and cast alive into a lake of fire.
• It is true that the saints are given into the hand of the Beast until those who remain alive are rescued when Christ cuts short the great tribulation by His return.
• It is true that what John sees when the seven seals are opened comes before the 7 trumpet judgements, and the 7 trumpet judgements come before the 7 vial judgements.
• It is true that as the seals are opened one by one John sees various events and happenings upon the earth and in heaven which he recorded for us to know.
• It is true that no described activity of the seventieth week is said to be unprecedented until great tribulation begins in the middle of the week.
• It is true that at the opening of the fifth seal the vengeance or wrath of God has not yet fallen upon the earth dwellers.
• It is true that the return of Jesus Christ and therefore the day of the Lord, happens sometime after the sixth seal is opened.
• It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that Joel prophesied would come prior to the great and terrible day of the Lord.
• It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the earth-dwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) hiding from the impending wrath of the Lamb as described by Isaiah in chapter two of his prophecy.
• It is true that Jesus identifies this cosmic sign and says it comes immediately after the great tribulation.
• It is true that Jesus says that His return in the clouds with glory and the holy angels follows the appearance of the cosmic sign.
• It is true that at that time there shall be a gathering to Christ of all the saved involving the first resurrection.
• It is true that the first stroke of God's wrath, upon the day of the Lord, comes after the seventh seal is opened, there is a half hour of silence in heaven, and the first trumpet is blown.
• It is true that the church will not experience the wrath of God but will be taken from the earth before it is poured out.
• It is true that God's wrath falls suddenly upon the earthdwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) the very day that the church is raptured.
• It is true that the church finds rest from persecution the very day that God's wrath falls upon their persecutors.
• It is true that the church, including the saints who experienced great tribulation, are seen in heaven before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured in Rev 7:9-17.

Each of these statements is supported by the clear declarations of the Prophets, our Lord, and the Apostles. Each is easily defended.

There are many ways to demonstrate that the great tribulation starts in the middle of the week and the day of the Lord only begins after those believers who are alive and remain are raptured out at Christ's second coming. Find two below.

1) Jesus states clearly that great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation takes place, and Daniel tells us that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

2) Paul says that the falling away (a notable departure from the faith) and the revelation of the man of sin in the temple must happen before the day of Christ can come.

The day of Christ from verse two and three below is further defined in verse one. It is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. It is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with his Church. The day of the Lord is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. Both days begin at His singular second coming (parousia = His arrival and continuing presence).

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Before the wrath of God on the day of the Lord can begin, the revelation of the Beast and the apostasia must take place.

Praise be to Jesus Christ

You go by your own erroneous opinions, and NOT by the Bible. You don't see the Church in Revelation after the 3rd chapter.

As for Matt 24: 15, That happened in AD 75, and has nothing to do with the coming great tribulation.

AS for 2 Thess 2: 3, Paul never mentioned falling away from "THE FAITH", Did he??.. NO, False teachers made the lie about falling from the faith.

The Greek meaning for "Falling away", Is from two Greek words that mean "A departing", and you have to put the right Greek meaning in context to the right scriptures, And in 2 Thess 2: 1, it means  "A departing" from the earth, THEN, And then only can the man of sin come.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Alan Hales

[Scott Free]

2 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

A departing

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4

[Alan Hales]

3 hours ago, Scott Free said:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4

That was the saints that got saved during the tribulation period, The same with those in Rev 6: 9. Rev 7: 9--15. [V14].  The Church goes to heaven before the tribulation period,  As Jesus [in relation to the coming tribulation], said Lk 21: 36.

And Paul, [in relation to the tribulation] said, 1 Thess 5: 9.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

What were the 3 questions, So I can answer them and prove you wrong?

I am SO sorry! I was sure I wrote the three questions down - but looking back, I could not find them. Here are the three questions Jesus asked me:

1. “I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. The first question then, why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four?”

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, a search that end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Please keep in mind, He also said that until I could answer these correctly, I would never understand this part of John's vision.  

Before Jesus asked me these three questions, I was asking Him why John was weeping, and why weeping "much" He said "It shows timing." When I could not find timing, He then said, "It also shows the movement of time."  You might then try to find timing and the movement of time in these two chapters.

[Last Daze]

28 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

That was the saints that got saved during the tribulation period

• For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

This passage directly contradicts the idea of a "great revival."  People who believe what is false do not become martyrs for the truth.  

[Steve Conley]

3 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

You go by your own erroneous opinions, and NOT by the Bible. You don't see the Church in Revelation after the 3rd chapter.

As for Matt 24. That happened in AD 75, and has nothing to do with the coming great tribulation.

AS for 2 Thess 2: 3, Paul never mentioned falling away from "THE FAITH", Did he??.. NO, False teachers made the lie about falling from the faith.

The Greek meaning for "Falling away", Is from two Greek words that mean "A departing", and you have to put the right Greek meaning in context to the right scriptures, And in 2 Thess 2: 1, it means  "A departing" from the earth, THEN, And then only can the man of sin come.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, it appears you have joined the bandwagon of so many pre-tribbers who corrupt the Word of God. When you can't find a text that teaches a pre-trib rapture you wrest one to that purpose. No amount of torturing of the word apostasia will yield a physical departure. Like the secret rapture in the 19th century, this twisting of the text (apostasia= rapture) is new and therefore untrue. There is not a single instance in all of Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used in a sense other than a religious or political departure. Every historic teaching on the passage takes it as a religious departure. Paul is just repeating what Jesus taught when he said that many would be offended when violent persecution comes upon them for Christ's name sake and that many would be deceived by the false prophets and lying signs and wonders.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Just like Jesus, Paul taught that there would be a falling away (a departure from the faith) associated with the unprecedented persecution of the Beast that would precede the arrival and continuing presence (coming = parousia) of Christ on the day of the Lord.

Alan, your problem is that you have elevated a system of understanding above the Holy Scriptures themselves.

Concerning Matt 24 taking place in 75 AD, what are you smoking? Neither Matthew nor Mark records the portion of the Olivet Discourse which addresses the first question: "when shall these things be", that is, when shall the Temple be destroyed, not one stone being left upon another. Matthew 24 is all about the signs of the parousia of Christ (Matt 24:3). The first unique sign will be the abomination of desolation. The defiling of the temple by the Beast (AoD) will begin the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation). The unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). The persecution will be over when the sun, moon, and stars go dark (Matt 24:29) and Christ in all His glory appears in the clouds with the mighty angels for all the world to see. He will then resurrect the dead in Christ, change those who are alive and remain, and catch us up together to be with Him in the clouds. All of that is found in Matt 24. All future. I thought they were only legalizing that stuff here in the States.

Concerning your assertion that the church is not found in Revelation after chapter 3. To be consistent you must believe that God has annihilated the church because there is no mention of the word church in heaven either. A little wisdom can show how foolish some arguments are. Arguments from silence are tenuous at best.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Praise Jesus