Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I  guess people can read, but it seems many read without understanding. Try to get some understanding. 

Proverbs 4:7

“The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom; And with all your acquiring, get understanding.

 

Read chapters 4 and 5 again without preconceptions!  What SHOULD be clear to you is the intent of the Author!

Sometimes, ya just need to take a detour into Arabia and spend some time there while you figure out what really matters.  Galatians 1:15-18

Priorities.

[Steve Conley]

On 9/25/2018 at 10:01 AM, Alan Hales said:

The souls in Rev 6: 9 are those who get saved during the tribulation period, along with those in Rev 7: 9--15, You read from 1st imaginations, Instead of from the Bible. So Clear of with your nonsense.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Hale, I, by no stretch of the imagination agree with Mr. mad's "time travel" eisegesis of Revelation (good nomenclature Last Daze). However, I want to point out that the two passages that you referenced do not say what you imply.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Nothing is said in these verses about when these martyred saints came to know Christ as their Saviour. In fact, nothing is said about the great tribulation at all. How we know that these believers are killed during the great tribulation is that the fifth seal comes before the sixth seal, and after the opening of the sixth seal comes the cosmic sign that portends the day of the Lord. This is exactly as Christ described it in Matt 24. First, there is unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) beginning in the middle of the week followed by the cosmic sign at which time Christ arrives, rescues His own and then begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers. There appears to be a strong inference that these are killed in the period of unprecedented persecution called great tribulation. It doesn't say they were saved in that period. You have added that to make the passage fit into the pre-trib narrative.

Also concerning Rev 7:9-17, it doesn't say that they were saved during that period of time, that is you, imposing the pre-trib narrative upon the text. All it says is that "these are they which came out of great tribulation." The text also communicates that these are primarily Gentiles by the use of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues".

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles is the church having been gathered to Christ standing before the throne. The elder says they came out of great tribulation. The unprecedented persecution begins in the middle of the week and when the Lord decides the cup of His wrath is full He decends from Heaven with the mighty angels to cut the great tribulation short. He does this when He resurrects the dead in Christ, changes those who are alive and remain unto His coming, catches up all of us together to be with Him in the clouds, and escorts us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. Since the resurrection and rapture effectively brings to an end the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation, all of the church can be said to have come out of great tribulation. All are raptured out of that period.

Instead of an inumerable multitude being saved in the great tribulation the Scriptures says that there will be a notable departure from the faith (Matt 24:10, 24) caused by the deception and persecution of that day. Concerning this very defection, Christ said "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) In that dark period, even God will turn off the spiritual light to those who refuse the truth.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What I have presented is not taken from the book of the Secret Rapture it is from the Bible, the Holy Scriptures.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Sometimes, ya just need to take a detour into Arabia and spend some time there while you figure out what really matters.  Galatians 1:15-18

Priorities.

Jesus told us to watch, if I counted right, 17 times. It must be important to HIM! 

[Alan Hales]

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Hale, I, by no stretch of the imagination agree with Mr. mad's "time travel" eisegesis of Revelation (good nomenclature Last Daze). However, I want to point out that the two passages that you referenced do not say what you imply.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Nothing is said in these verses about when these martyred saints came to know Christ as their Saviour. In fact, nothing is said about the great tribulation at all. How we know that these believers are killed during the great tribulation is that the fifth seal comes before the sixth seal, and after the opening of the sixth seal comes the cosmic sign that portends the day of the Lord. This is exactly as Christ described it in Matt 24. First, there is unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) beginning in the middle of the week followed by the cosmic sign at which time Christ arrives, rescues His own and then begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers. There appears to be a strong inference that these are killed in the period of unprecedented persecution called great tribulation. It doesn't say they were saved in that period. You have added that to make the passage fit into the pre-trib narrative.

Also concerning Rev 7:9-17, it doesn't say that they were saved during that period of time, that is you, imposing the pre-trib narrative upon the text. All it says is that "these are they which came out of great tribulation." The text also communicates that these are primarily Gentiles by the use of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues".

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles is the church having been gathered to Christ standing before the throne. The elder says they came out of great tribulation. The unprecedented persecution begins in the middle of the week and when the Lord decides the cup of His wrath is full He decends from Heaven with the mighty angels to cut the great tribulation short. He does this when He resurrects the dead in Christ, changes those who are alive and remain unto His coming, catches up all of us together to be with Him in the clouds, and escorts us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. Since the resurrection and rapture effectively brings to an end the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation, all of the church can be said to have come out of great tribulation. All are raptured out of that period.

Instead of an inumerable multitude being saved in the great tribulation the Scriptures says that there will be a notable departure from the faith (Matt 24:10, 24) caused by the deception and persecution of that day. Concerning this very defection, Christ said "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) In that dark period, even God will turn off the spiritual light to those who refuse the truth.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What I have presented is not taken from the book of the Secret Rapture it is from the Bible, the Holy Scriptures.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

I take it you are joking, Right? Of cause Rev 6 9 and Rev 7: 9--15 id the tribulation period, You only have to look at Rev 7: 14 to find out that they came from the great tribulation period. And Rev 6 is the same year as Rev 7.

You are wrong, Because what you have presented is your own opinions on those scriptures.

Matt 24. Is talking about the tribulation period . And so is 2 Thess 2: 11--12, Because the Church HAS to go before the man of sin can come,

2 Thess 2: 3--8.

I guess you are practicing for the pantomime season. Because your jokes are very funny. 

[Steve Conley]

17 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

the Church HAS to go before the man of sin can come,

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Hales, your statement is saying the exact opposite of the apostle Paul in 2Thes 2:1-3

Paul asks them to not be disturbed or frightened thinking that the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the rapture) is near in time. He says that that day, the day of Christ, shall not come until the departure from the faith takes place that is brought on by the great tribulation which is initiated by the revelation of the man of sin, who is the Beast, standing in the temple shewing that he is God.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Hales, your statement is saying the exact opposite of the apostle Paul in 2Thes 2:1-3

Paul asks them to not be disturbed or frightened thinking that the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the rapture) is near in time. He says that that day, the day of Christ, shall not come until the departure from the faith takes place that is brought on by the great tribulation which is initiated by the revelation of the man of sin, who is the Beast, standing in the temple shewing that he is God.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord

I think you are reading this text wrong. 

In Paul's first letter, did he say "day of the Lord" or Day of Christ?" You will find it was the Day of the Lord. Since we have some Greek texts saying Day of Christ and others saying day of the Lord, which one do we use? Since Paul used Day of the Lord in His first letter, I think that is the translation we should use.  Anyway, since "Christ" is "Lord" lets just say Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord. 

What IS that day according to the Old Testament? Is it a day of gathering? Or it is a day of destruction?

Isaiah 13:6

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

 

It is a day of Destruction. That is why they were so shook up: they were under severe persecution. Paul had taught them they would be caught up before the DAY, but now they had heard they were already IN the day! Had Paul lied to them? So they wrote to Paul. I would be upset too if I had read Paul's first letter, and believed I was in the DAY and still here!

 

Therefore, it is a HUGE mistake to believe or say or write that His coming and the gathering and THE DAY are synonomous. They are not. The Day of the Lord STARTS with destruction, not with a rapture or a gathering! It starts with Paul's sudden destruction that those left behind cannot escape from. 

 

You hinted that the day of the rapture or the day of gathering could not come until the departing from the faith comes which will be brought on by days of GT that starts first with the revealing of the man of sin. 

 

Are you saying that it is this great departing from the faith that will allow the man of sin to be revealed? He is revealed so Christians leave the faith? 

 

It is indeed a departing that must come first, but that is the departing of the church! The church is the restrainer and the church must be taken out of the way before the man of sin can be revealed. He CAN'T while the church is here.  So you have completely reverses Paul's real meaning.  

 

NExt, you are complete wrong on why they were disturbed. If they thought His coming and their going was soon to come, they would have been DELIGHTED and jumping for Joy!  No, the truth is, they had hear the DAY had come - the day of destruction - and Paul had told them they would go BEFORE the day. No wonder they were upset! They were still here and the DAY had come - or so they thought. Paul's argument is to prove to them how to know for SURE the Day had come - that is the day of destruction - If they see the man of sin revealed, that would be proof positive the DAY had come and they were in it. -

 

The TRUTH is, the DAY comes first. Then 3 1/2 years later, the man of sin is revealed. This is John's Chronology.

How could you get it completely flipped?

Edited September 28, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 9/27/2018 at 2:36 AM, Alan Hales said:

I take it you are joking, Right? Of cause Rev 6 9 and Rev 7: 9--15 id the tribulation period, You only have to look at Rev 7: 14 to find out that they came from the great tribulation period. And Rev 6 is the same year as Rev 7.

You are wrong, Because what you have presented is your own opinions on those scriptures.

Matt 24. Is talking about the tribulation period . And so is 2 Thess 2: 11--12, Because the Church HAS to go before the man of sin can come,

2 Thess 2: 3--8.

I guess you are practicing for the pantomime season. Because your jokes are very funny. 

I agree with your premise, but I must disagree with your text. 

What exactly do you mean by "the tribulation period?" Do you mean Daniel's 70th week?  If so, you are confused as to when it begins. The "tribulation" does not start until the 7th seal" God has marked this time by 7's so we would not miss it.  Since John did not see this 7 year agreement signed, he did not write of it. Therefore it is difficult to know exactly when it begins. However, when one discovers the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it, it is easier to see that the 30 minutes of silence STARTS the week. 

Next, you have to learn that every time John writes the two words, "great tribulation" does not automatically prove John is somewhere in the second half of the week when those days of GT JESUS spoke of will come. No, the truth is, John used those two words together TWICE and neither time is referring to the days Jesus spoke of.  

If you believe Jesus, those days of GT cannot and will not start until the midpoint abomination. It is not IN chapter 6 or chapter 7! The abomination does not come until chapter 11. Again, John did not see it so did not write of it, so how can we know?  Jesus told those in Judea to begin to flee the moment they see the abomination. We see that fleeing in 12:6. therefore the abomination takes place a second or two before - at the 7th trumpet. God will cause that 7th trumpet to sound in heaven the very moment the man of sin declares he is God in the temple. 

Revelation 6:9 is church age martyrs, NOT day of the Lord martyrs. The day has not started yet when Stephen was martyred. It is still future to US! 

The great crowd, too large to number is the raptured church - JUST raptured a moment before the 6th seal.  You see, in God's mind, when someone is put to death for their testimony, it is great tribulation. And these days many are being killed for their testimony - and it will get worse. 

John did not see the rapture but DID see the church in heaven shortly after the rapture.  And it certainly will come before the 7th seal that starts the week - so the rapture is certainly pretrib.

Edited September 28, 2018 by iamlamad

[Alan Hales]

8 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. Hales, your statement is saying the exact opposite of the apostle Paul in 2Thes 2:1-3

Paul asks them to not be disturbed or frightened thinking that the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the rapture) is near in time. He says that that day, the day of Christ, shall not come until the departure from the faith takes place that is brought on by the great tribulation which is initiated by the revelation of the man of sin, who is the Beast, standing in the temple shewing that he is God.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord

The reason why Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, Was because some of your relatives were around in those days, Scaring people by saying they would have to go through the tribulation period. As you have proved from Vs 1--3. Paul was telling them not to believe people like YOU who deceive people.

If you read the 2 Thess 2: 1, 1, You'll see the two comings of Jesus,

[1] The coming of the Lord,

AND

[2]Our gathering together unto Him. 

[1]is the physical coming of Jesus to reign. [2]Is the pre-trib rapture.

Then v 3--7 is the Church going to heaven BEFORE the man of sin can come. The "Falling away" in v3, Means "A departing", Please note, Paul didn't say a falling away from THE FAITH, Did he?. NO.     Vs 6-7 says we have to go before the wicked one and his wicked ways can come.

 

But Surprise, Surprise, You have got ONE thing right. Gosh, I am shocked that you got one thing right. And that is, The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord, [Which is the physical coming of Jesus to reign].

Getting ONE thing right, Is a great improvement for you.

[Alan Hales]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree with your premise, but I much disagree with your text. 

What exactly do you mean by "the tribulation period?" Do you mean Daniel's 70th week?  If so, you are confused as to when it begins. The "tribulation" does not start until the 7th seal" God has marked this time by 7's so we would not miss it.  Since John did not see this 7 year agreement signed, he did not write of it. Therefore it is difficult to know exactly when it begins. However, when one discovers the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it, it is easier to see that the 30 minutes of silence STARTS the week. 

Next, you have to learn that every time John writes the two words, "great tribulation" does not automatically prove John is somewhere in the second half of the week when those days of GT JESUS spoke of will come. No, the truth is, John used those two words together TWICE and neither time is referring to the days Jesus spoke of.  

If you believe Jesus, those days of GT cannot and will not start until the midpoint abomination. It is not IN chapter 6 or chapter 7! The abomination does not come until chapter 11. Again, John did not see it so did not write of it, so how can we know?  Jesus told those in Judea to begin to flee the moment they see the abomination. We see that fleeing in 12:6. therefore the abomination takes place a second or two before - at the 7th trumpet. God will cause that 7th trumpet to sound in heaven the very moment the man of sin declares he is God in the temple. 

Revelation 6:9 is church age martyrs, NOT day of the Lord martyrs. The day has not started yet when Stephen was martyred. It is still future to US! 

The great crowd, too large to number is the raptured church - JUST raptured a moment before the 6th seal.  You see, in God's mind, when someone is put to death for their testimony, it is great tribulation. And these days many are being killed for their testimony - and it will get worse. 

John did not see the rapture but DID see the church in heaven shortly after the rapture.  And it certainly will come before the 7th seal that starts the week - so the rapture is certainly pretrib.

Your opinions don't match up to the Biblical truths.

Please note when the 7th seal was opened, Rev 8: 1. Yet Rev 7: 9--15 clearly says the tribulation period had already begun, See Rev 7: 14.

Can't you see what a false teacher you are.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

The reason why Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, Was because some of your relatives were around in those days, Scaring people by saying they would have to go through the tribulation period. As you have proved from Vs 1--3. Paul was telling them not to believe people like YOU who deceive people.

If you read the 2 Thess 2: 1, 1, You'll see the two comings of Jesus,

[1] The coming of the Lord,

AND

[2]Our gathering together unto Him. 

[1]is the physical coming of Jesus to reign. [2]Is the pre-trib rapture.

Then v 3--7 is the Church going to heaven BEFORE the man of sin can come. The "Falling away" in v3, Means "A departing", Please note, Paul didn't say a falling away from THE FAITH, Did he?. NO.     Vs 6-7 says we have to go before the wicked one and his wicked ways can come.

 

But Surprise, Surprise, You have got ONE thing right. Gosh, I am shocked that you got one thing right. And that is, The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord, [Which is the physical coming of Jesus to reign].

Getting ONE thing right, Is a great improvement for you.

Sorry, not MY relatives! Did you really READ my post?  My last line was, "so the rapture is certainly pretrib." 

The problem is, most people can't find "the trib" in Revelation, much less the rapture. Worse yet, and don't know when John changed from church age to end times. In fact, most people make this mistake in Matthew 24 also. 

What you said is not what they said: they said the "Day of the Lord" had come. The truth is, the 70th week is inside the day of the Lord, since "the day" begins shortly before "the trib."

Sorry, but His coming is FOR the rapture, and it is ONE coming at that time. He comes to the air in the clouds and we are caught up to Him - so ONE (1) coming at that time. He will come again as shown in Rev. 19 over 7 years later. 

Then v 3--7 is the Church going to heaven BEFORE the man of sin can come.  Again, you did not read my post! I agree with you here! The apostasa is the church departing: that is the rapture. Good point!

[1]is the physical coming of Jesus to reign. [2]Is the pre-trib rapture.  This part is nonsense. Sorry. His coming to reign is found in Rev. 19, 7 years AFTER this coming FOR His saints. How could you miss something SO SIMPLE: He has to COME to the clouds FOR the rapture. Did you not read 1 Thes. 4? Paul wrote that He comes to the clouds - so it is a coming. 

And you are wrong again: I am almost always right. You just don't know it yet.