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Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?


iamlamad

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2 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

The reason why Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, Was because some of your relatives were around in those days, Scaring people by saying they would have to go through the tribulation period. As you have proved from Vs 1--3. Paul was telling them not to believe people like YOU who deceive people.

If you read the 2 Thess 2: 1, 1, You'll see the two comings of Jesus,

[1] The coming of the Lord,

AND

[2]Our gathering together unto Him. 

[1]is the physical coming of Jesus to reign. [2]Is the pre-trib rapture.

Then v 3--7 is the Church going to heaven BEFORE the man of sin can come. The "Falling away" in v3, Means "A departing", Please note, Paul didn't say a falling away from THE FAITH, Did he?. NO.     Vs 6-7 says we have to go before the wicked one and his wicked ways can come.

 

But Surprise, Surprise, You have got ONE thing right. Gosh, I am shocked that you got one thing right. And that is, The antichrist comes before the day of the Lord, [Which is the physical coming of Jesus to reign].

Getting ONE thing right, Is a great improvement for you.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, even the casual reader of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians who hasn't been brainwashed with the pre-trib system can see that it is the severe persecution that the Thessalonians were suffering that caused them to think that they were in that period of great tribulation which comes right prior to Christ's return to gather His own to Himself. Paul tells them, No, the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time), because the unprecedented persecution that Jesus spoke about will not start until the revelation of the man of sin (abomination of desolation) and it cannot be cut short until there is a notable departure from the faith due to the persecution and deception (lying signs and wonders) of the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers (Jesus described the unprecedented persecution in detail in Matt 24:9-29). 

Recognizing that what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is a verbatim description of that cosmic sign that Joel and Peter said would come prior to the day of the Lord will force you to correct your rapture timing model.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

God's wrath comes as a surprise upon the lost world on the very day that we are raptured. The period of time in which God's wrath is poured out upon the Beast worshipping world is the beginning portion of the day of the Lord (the day continues throughout Christ's eternal reign). God's wrath doesn't fall until the day of the Lord begins following the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. God's wrath or vengeance doesn't come until after the fellowservants and brethren of the martyred souls under the altar are martyred also. 

Jesus made it very clear that the rapture comes on the very day that His wrath begins to fall.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

If the day of the rapture, and the day that God's wrath begins to fall are the same day? And they are.  If it is at the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath begins to fall? And it is. If the day of the Lord follows the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal? And it does. Then the rapture comes after the sixth seal is opened! Case closed

How hard was that?

The proverb "none are so blind as those who will not see" may fit you, and you may never come in line with what the Scriptures say concerning the timing of Christ's return and our gathering together unto Him. That is until you see the man of sin and are experiencing violent persecution. Will you be faithful unto death? Or will you take the mark to save your physical life and damn your soul for eternity? That will be a true test that will show what kind of faith you have. Is your's an unfeigned abiding faith in the person and work of the Eternal Son of God who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity. Or is your faith in the Jesus that has been conjured by the escapist prosperity gospel preachers of this postmodern day? Jesus will say to those, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

Alan, I don't know you other than that you are as mixed up as I once was. God is good, and He can change you, He can cause you to see if you ask Him. But even if you don't, there are others who read these posts who will be helped. Ultimately it is for these that I spend the time I do, on this board.

Glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

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3 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

Your opinions don't match up to the Biblical truths.

Please note when the 7th seal was opened, Rev 8: 1. Yet Rev 7: 9--15 clearly says the tribulation period had already begun, See Rev 7: 14.

Can't you see what a false teacher you are.

What I can see is, you don't really understand much about John's chronology or his terminology. 

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4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, even the casual reader of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians who hasn't been brainwashed with the pre-trib system can see that it is the severe persecution that the Thessalonians were suffering that caused them to think that they were in that period of great tribulation which comes right prior to Christ's return to gather His own to Himself. Paul tells them, No, the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time), because the unprecedented persecution that Jesus spoke about will not start until the revelation of the man of sin (abomination of desolation) and it cannot be cut short until there is a notable departure from the faith due to the persecution and deception (lying signs and wonders) of the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers (Jesus described the unprecedented persecution in detail in Matt 24:9-29). 

Recognizing that what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is a verbatim description of that cosmic sign that Joel and Peter said would come prior to the day of the Lord will force you to correct your rapture timing model.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

God's wrath comes as a surprise upon the lost world on the very day that we are raptured. The period of time in which God's wrath is poured out upon the Beast worshipping world is the beginning portion of the day of the Lord (the day continues throughout Christ's eternal reign). God's wrath doesn't fall until the day of the Lord begins following the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. God's wrath or vengeance doesn't come until after the fellowservants and brethren of the martyred souls under the altar are martyred also. 

Jesus made it very clear that the rapture comes on the very day that His wrath begins to fall.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

If the day of the rapture, and the day that God's wrath begins to fall are the same day? And they are.  If it is at the beginning of the day of the Lord when God's wrath begins to fall? And it is. If the day of the Lord follows the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal? And it does. Then the rapture comes after the sixth seal is opened! Case closed

How hard was that?

The proverb "none are so blind as those who will not see" may fit you, and you may never come in line with what the Scriptures say concerning the timing of Christ's return and our gathering together unto Him. That is until you see the man of sin and are experiencing violent persecution. Will you be faithful unto death? Or will you take the mark to save your physical life and damn your soul for eternity? That will be a true test that will show what kind of faith you have. Is your's an unfeigned abiding faith in the person and work of the Eternal Son of God who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity. Or is your faith in the Jesus that has been conjured by the escapist prosperity gospel preachers of this postmodern day? Jesus will say to those, depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you.

Alan, I don't know you other than that you are as mixed up as I once was. God is good, and He can change you, He can cause you to see if you ask Him. But even if you don't, there are others who read these posts who will be helped. Ultimately it is for these that I spend the time I do, on this board.

Glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Steve, this was good! I congratulate you.  However, I wish to challenge a few points.

the rapture comes after the sixth seal is opened!

Oh, really? Let's look at Paul's order! 

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What order do we see?

1. COMING. 2. Shout. 3. Trump.  4. the dead rise. 5. those alive rise. 

Now, where does Paul mention the Day of the Lord?

5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Now, HOW does Paul tie in this Day of the Lord with the catching away?

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

This is where!  HOW do we get to "live together with Him?" Well, How do we "so shall we ever be with the Lord?"  Of course by way of the rapture. We get raptured out RATHER THAN have an appointment with His wrath. We know from Revelation that His wrath is synonymous with THE DAY. It is THE DAY of His WRATH. 

Then Paul also tells us that at the very same moment of time - that moment when those alive are changed and caught up - that at that same moment those left behind get "sudden destruction." What is - or what will be - that sudden destruction? It will be a worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. As God brings those particles or matter that once made up their bodies together, it will cause a great earthquake, just as Matthew 27 tells us. And that great earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. And that great earthquake will be the START of God's wrath. That is what John tells us and what Paul tells us. 

Therefore, the DAY of the Lord is a day of destruction, but the TRIGGER for that day will be the rapture.  Therefore don't EVER confuse the rapture with THE DAY or THE DAY with the rapture. The rapture will be wonderful, but THE DAY will be a terrible day of destruction.

it is the severe persecution that the Thessalonians were suffering that caused them to think that they were in that period of great tribulation which comes right prior to Christ's return to gather His own to Himself.

Let's analyse this:  You are absolutely right: it was their severe persecution AND the letter or prophecy telling them that caused them to believe the Day of the Lord (the day of destruction) had started. Very true.  HOWEVER, it does NOT come "right prior: to Christ's return to gather! NO! According to Paul, the gathering will come FIRST and then the DAY begins. In short, the gathering or rapture will be the TRIGGER for the DAY. Your prewrath roots are showing. I have told you over and over, prewrath theory is BOGUS. It does not follow the word correctly understood. Don't take my word for, go back and read this message from the start again and notice Paul's chronology. 

John did not see the rapture, so did not write it, but God allowed JOhn to see the raptured church in heaven right after the rapture. 

No, the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time), because the unprecedented persecution that Jesus spoke about will not start until the revelation of the man of sin (abomination of desolation)

Sorry, but this is complete myth! This is not at ALL Paul's message to them. He basically told them, NO, you are not IN the Day of the Lord, because until you see the man of sin enter the temple, THEN you will know the DAY has started and you are in it. But the man of sin cannot be revealed until the one restraining him is taken out of the way. And "now you know" who that restrainer is, because it will be the departing of the church that allows the man of sin to be revealed. 

(Note carefully that after John starts THE DAY in chapter 6, the first 6 trumpet judgments come before the abomination! This my friend is a 3 1/2 year period of TIME. The days of GT will not start until AFTER the abomination and the abomination is in chapter 11.  Your chronology is all messed up! But then, that is what prewrath theory does. )  I am out of time.

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On 9/26/2018 at 11:45 AM, Alan Hales said:

Will you clear off with your nonsense. I'm not casting my pearls before swine anymore.

Removed from thread.

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If I may stir the pot a little here and throw this out.

I am one of those "brainwashed" pre-trib folks.  There is so much support from both the NT and the OT for a removal and protection of the righteous before the events of the last days.  Only when one focuses primarily on only one witness (the NT) does confusion reign.  The scripture requires that it takes two or more witnesses to confirm a matter.  For doctrine that would be the NT and OT.  If a position cannot be fully supported from both, then it cannot be a settled matter.

Now, getting past the pre-trib removal and moving onward.   I am convinced that the first few seals of Revelation 6 are an interlude between the removal of the righteous and the start of the 70th week of Daniel / 7 years.    We know from Daniel 9:27 that the confirmation of a covenant is what triggers the 70th week / 7 years.

According to the 4th seal of Revelation 6, death and hades gain control of 1/4 of the earth and go on a killing spree.  The text does not say 1/4 of the earth's population dies.  It says that death and hades get control over 1/4 of the earth.   Now, Isaiah 28:14-15, Israel is making a covenant or pact with death and sheol (hades) for protection from the scourge that death and hades are carrying out.   During that, the scourge or mass killing of those who have trusted in Messiah since the removal of the righteous is going on.  That is the 5th seal.   As to who death and sheol/hades represents does not seem to be some abstract concept but references to real identities.  Some have postulated that death and hades/sheol is a veiled reference to the false prophet and the false religious system.  That does fit.

The antichrist confirms that covenant as per Daniel 9:27 which officially triggers the start of the 70th week / 7 years.   At that point, the two witnesses kick into high gear and start their activities that tick off the earth dwellers.  One should do a serious study on earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth, etc.  The allusion throughout scripture, it is an idiom for those who are condemned.   The 144K are separated at this point also.  Since the two witnesses are operating directly in authority of God, the idea that they are bringing forth the wrath of God is hard to dispute effectively.

The covenant made with Israel will be annulled by the antichrist, according to Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18.  That most likely begins when the two witnesses are killed at the midpoint per Revelation 11.    At that point, the fleeing of Jerusalem begins in accordance to what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:15-16.

The entire bottom drops out and the GT kicks into hight gear.  The remaining Israelis who have fled finally realize their offense of rejecting the true Messiah, Yeshua, and corporately turn to Him and petition Him to rescue them.  This is in accordance with Hosea 5:14 - 6:2, which was affirmed by Yeshua is Matthew 23:39.

The righteous up to the point of the 1st seal have no part in all of this.  Numerous OT passages support that as does comments from Yeshua in Matthew 21.  Psalms 27 supports it.  Isaiah 26 and 66 support it. Jeremiah 30 supports it. Micah 5:3 supports it.  And the list goes on.  And those OT passages when taken in light of Revelation 12:2-5 along with Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and Ephesians 5;23, a very vibrant picture of a removal of the righteous before the 70th week / 7 years comes into focus.  And I didn't even touch on the traditional passages that most pre-trib folks use, though those passages are apropos.

The entire point being, Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 allusions to the OT.  The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to confirm everything Paul taught them.  All they had was the OT and other pre NT writings.  Ecclesiastes says there in nothing new under the sun, and Paul tells us that what was written before was for our learning.  At the time Paul wrote that, it could only mean the OT.   Virtually every assertion about the events of the last days must be corroborated in both the NT and the OT to be considered valid.

 

 

 

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Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

 

OC, you infer that you are a Berean, that you readily receive teaching, then search the Scriptures to see whether those things are so. Let's do the same for what you have said. Your statements are presented below in red.

 

If I may stir the pot a little here and throw this out.

 

I am one of those "brainwashed" pre-trib folks.  There is so much support from both the NT and the OT for a removal and protection of the righteous before the events of the last days.  Only when one focuses primarily on only one witness (the NT) does confusion reign.  The scripture requires that it takes two or more witnesses to confirm a matter.  For doctrine that would be the NT and OT.  If a position cannot be fully supported from both, then it cannot be a settled matter.

 

If, as you allege, the righteous are removed before the events of the last days, then pray tell why does Jesus use the second person POV when answering the righteous disciple's questions concerning the sign of His parousia as recorded in Matt 24? If Christ's disciples will be removed before "the events of the last days", why is He providing them with those notable events which will signal that His arrival is near in time, if none of the righteous will be here to witness them? The truth is that nothing in either the OT or NT teaches what you claim. Indeed, all the righteous will not experience the wrath of God on the day of the Lord, but the church will not be exempt from the unprecedented persecution of the Beast and False Prophet.

 

Concerning your two witnesses hermeneutic, it is not a Biblical one. The principle of two or three witnesses has to do with the testimony of fallen mankind in relation to evidence given of criminal activity. However, when it comes to the Holy Scriptures, a single explicit statement of the inerrant Word of God is all that is necessary to establish any truth. Your “two witnesses” doctrine seems to encourage a person to favor the subjective interpretation of an obscure OT text over an explicit statement of Christ or the Apostles in the NT. This type of hermeneutic is favored by those who wish to fashion the teaching of Scripture after their own ideas. It is very subjective, and in effect, not much different than the allegorical hermeneutic of Augustine, which is to be rejected entirely.

 

Now, getting past the pre-trib removal and moving onward.   I am convinced that the first few seals of Revelation 6 are an interlude between the removal of the righteous and the start of the 70th week of Daniel / 7 years.    We know from Daniel 9:27 that the confirmation of a covenant is what triggers the 70th week / 7 years.

 

No matter how convinced you are, the rapture cannot happen until the singular future coming (Parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of Christ takes place. It takes place at the beginning of the day of the Lord right after the cosmic sign which announces the end of the great tribulation (Matt 24:29). Parousia is the word used in Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39 for Christ’s coming and it is the word used in 1Thes 4:15 for Christ’s coming. Heb 9:28 says that He appears a second time, but nothing is said about a third time anywhere in all of the Holy Scriptures. Parousia involves a continuing presence, not just an “approach.” An “approach” is the Greek word erchomai.

I agree the confirmation of the covenant will begin the seventieth week.

 

According to the 4th seal of Revelation 6, death and hades gain control of 1/4 of the earth and go on a killing spree.  The text does not say 1/4 of the earth's population dies.  It says that death and hades get control over 1/4 of the earth.   Now, Isaiah 28:14-15, Israel is making a covenant or pact with death and sheol (hades) for protection from the scourge that death and hades are carrying out.   During that, the scourge or mass killing of those who have trusted in Messiah since the removal of the righteous is going on.  That is the 5th seal.   As to who death and sheol/hades represents does not seem to be some abstract concept but references to real identities.  Some have postulated that death and hades/sheol is a veiled reference to the false prophet and the false religious system.  That does fit.

 

Rev 6:7  And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 

Rev 6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Isa 28:14  Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 

Isa 28:15  Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

 

Nothing in the text you mention says anything about the removal of the righteous, or anybody trusting in Christ since the removal of the righteous.

 

The antichrist confirms that covenant as per Daniel 9:27 which officially triggers the start of the 70th week / 7 years.   At that point, the two witnesses kick into high gear and start their activities that tick off the earth dwellers.  One should do a serious study on earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth, etc.  The allusion throughout scripture, it is an idiom for those who are condemned.   The 144K are separated at this point also.  Since the two witnesses are operating directly in authority of God, the idea that they are bringing forth the wrath of God is hard to dispute effectively.

 

Your timeline concerning the two witnesses fails to take into account that their ministry is finished at the end of the second woe. This places their 1260 days primarily in the second half of the week, not in the first as you hypothesize.

 

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 

Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 

Rev 11:5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 

Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 

Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 

Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 

Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 

Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

Since they are slain by the Beast, who continues to live through the third woe or 7 vial judgements, their 1260 days begins before the 42 months of the Beast.

 

Concerning the earth dwellers, many months ago I provided such teaching introducing the topic on this forum.

 

If it is true that they are agents of God’s wrath, it is another indication that their ministry takes place in part after Christ’s appearing, which begins the day of the Lord.

 

The covenant made with Israel will be annulled by the antichrist, according to Daniel 9:27 and Isaiah 28:18.  That most likely begins when the two witnesses are killed at the midpoint per Revelation 11.    At that point, the fleeing of Jerusalem begins in accordance to what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:15-16.

 

OC, Dan 9:27 does not say that he annuls the covenant, it says that he defiles the temple which causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease. You are reading into the text.

 

Isa 28:18  And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

 

It is a great stretch to say that this is the covenant with many that he confirms.

 

As shown a few paragraphs before, the witnesses finish their ministry at the end of the second woe (sixth trumpet judgement). This means that their death and ascension takes place after the great tribulation and after all but the last of the trumpet judgements, which is the seven vials.

 

The entire bottom drops out and the GT kicks into hight gear. 

 

There is nothing said to be unprecedented about the seventieth week until in the middle when the great tribulation begins.

 

The remaining Israelis who have fled finally realize their offense of rejecting the true Messiah, Yeshua, and corporately turn to Him and petition Him to rescue them.  This is in accordance with Hosea 5:14 - 6:2, which was affirmed by Yeshua is Matthew 23:39.

 

Hos 5:14  For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him. 

Hos 5:15  I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. 

Hos 6:1  Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 

Hos 6:2  After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

 

Mat 23:39  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

The righteous up to the point of the 1st seal have no part in all of this. 

 

OC, you have seen that the day of our rapture is the day God’s wrath begins to be poured out upon the earth-dwellers in the day of the Lord (Lk 17:26-30). You have also seen that the day of the Lord doesn’t come until after the sixth seal is opened (Joel 2:31, Rev 6:12-17). Yet you still contend that the rapture takes place before the first seal. It is very hard to shake off a system that is so ingrained into the whole of your understanding of the Scriptures, even if it is a false system.

 

Numerous OT passages support that as does comments from Yeshua in Matthew 21.  Psalms 27 supports it.  Isaiah 26 and 66 support it. Jeremiah 30 supports it. Micah 5:3 supports it.  And the list goes on. 

 

These full chapters are too lengthy to paste here. Reguardless, they do not say what you are alleging.

 

Mic 5:3  Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

 

And those OT passages when taken in light of Revelation 12:2-5 along with Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:7, and Ephesians 5;23, a very vibrant picture of a removal of the righteous before the 70th week / 7 years comes into focus.  And I didn't even touch on the traditional passages that most pre-trib folks use, though those passages are apropos.

 

Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 

Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

Rom 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 

1Co 12:7  But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 

Eph 5:23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

I’m sorry, but I don’t see anything here to challenge the clear statements of Christ and the Apostles concerning the elect experiencing unprecedented persecution before being caught out at Christ’s appearing.

 

The entire point being, Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 allusions to the OT.  The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to confirm everything Paul taught them.  All they had was the OT and other pre NT writings.  Ecclesiastes says there in nothing new under the sun, and Paul tells us that what was written before was for our learning.  At the time Paul wrote that, it could only mean the OT.   Virtually every assertion about the events of the last days must be corroborated in both the NT and the OT to be considered valid.

 

I agree that much of what we know concerning the events surrounding the coming of Christ can be found in the OT. However, the Apostles tell us that what the prophets were moved to speak and write was not always understood by them. If they, did not understand what they had prophesied, what makes you think you can understand them, without the illumination found in the NT. It is now in these last days (the time of Christ through the present) that these things are revealed unto us by the Christ and the Apostles in the NT. Your two witnesses hermeneutic, is, as I have described it here. It is a construct of man’s imagination. It would have been better if you would have been a Berean when you were taught that misplaced principle of jurisprudence.

 

Glory to Jesus Christ

Edited by Steve Conley
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On 9/29/2018 at 6:40 PM, Steve Conley said:

 

No matter how convinced you are, the rapture cannot happen until the singular future coming (Parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of Christ takes place. It takes place at the beginning of the day of the Lord right after the cosmic sign which announces the end of the great tribulation (Matt 24:29).

 

 

Glory to Jesus Christ

What you state here is human reasoning that is in error all by itself! How then can anything else be believed? 

There is absolutely NO PROOF in scripture that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture gathering. People have been trying unsuccessfully to prove this by scripture for YEARS! All have failed for the simple reason, it is NOT Paul's rapture. 

Your next error is the Jesus PRESENCE must be here before THE DAY comes. Revelation 6 proves that wrong also. Putting Paul's rapture scriptures togther with Revelation 6, Jesus comes ONLY to the clouds, the rapture takes place, THEN (after the rapture) THE DAY begins while Jesus returns to heaven with the church. there is no "continued presence" at this coming FOR His saints. 

Your next error is again totally un-scriptural stating that the beginning of the DAY is after the end of the Great tribulation. Jesus Himself tells us the days of GT will not start until after the MIDPOINT of the week.  Yet John shows THE DAY beginning at the 6th seal before the week has begun. 

Jesus coming as He states in Matthew 24 is the very same coming as shown in Rev. 19. The week ends at the 7th vial in chapter 16. Yet, THE DAY started at the 6th seal over 7 years before. See how mixed up your theories are? 

Here is John's God Given Chronology: any other chronology will be wrong:


1 thes 4:

1: Jesus comes

2: the dead in Christ rise  - causing a worldwide earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction

3. the earth begins to shake - Paul's sudden destruction

4. Two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get raptured and escape God's wrath - those in darkness GET His wrath.

5. Those in Christ are gathering and on their way to meet Christ in the clouds.

6. Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake is worldwide - because the dead in Christ are worldwide. 

7. THE DAY starts with this earth quake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake  / sudden destruction

In Revelation this will take place a moment before the 6th seal: rapture first, then sudden destruction earthquake of the 6th seal.  But the "tribulation" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal - I am guessing ten days later (the ten days of awe). 

8. Next will come the first 6 trumpet judgments

9. The man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies: the city will be trampled for 42 months.  The Two witnesses show up and begin. 

10. Then the 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint. The Kingdoms of the word are given to Jesus Christ.

11. A second or two later, 12:6 takes place and those in Judea begin to flee.

12: As those in Judea begin to flee, Michael is going after Satan to cats him down.

13. John sees the beast arising. 

14. God sends three angels to warn people to worship God, Babylon is fallen is fallen, and not to take the mark.

15. The false prophet shows up and the image is erected. The mark is created and now enforcement begins: any who refuse to bow will lose their head.

16. the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. 

17. The beast and False prophet go nuts -  on a murder rampage!  It seems - their may be no elect that will escape.

18. God pours out the vials of His wrath - probably the first 6 in one hour of time. this stops the great tribulation: TIME will go on but no tribulation associated with it. The armies of the beast are stopped.

19. The two witnesses are killed.

20 the 7th vial is poured out. The Old TEstament saints rise, along with the two witnesses. The days of GT are over. The entire 7oth week is over.  Jesus remains in heaven.

20: the 42 months of trampling are over: the armies of the beast move out into the valley.

20: the 1260 days of testifying ended 3 1/2 days previous. They were killed.

21: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven. 

22: Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride.  Armageddon takes place. 

23: the Beast and false prophet are caught. 

24: the 1290 days and the 1335 days comes into play about here.

THIS is John's chronology. Any thing other than this is myth. Your theory is definitely myth. 

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43 pages of posts and we have very little consensus! 

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