Why so much disagreement on the start of THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad...

I am saying that God's wrath is found in the DAY of His wrath, and that time frame will be longer than 7 years......speculation. Where's your proof from scripture

for the 6th seal comes before the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week.....speculation....no proof of this anywhere in scripture

I find scriptures that show Jesus also with wrath when He comes post 70th week with power to defeat his enemies at the battle of Armageddon......show me the scriptures that He comes POST 70th week for the battle of Armegeddon

Then it is very possible THE DAY continues on until after the thousand year reign of Christ.......not possible. 1000 years of doom and gloom, clouds and darkness...fire and brimstone, etc. Can't see the Lord having saved His righteous ones and then have them endure THAT for 1000 years.

There are some problems: first, Paul's rapture comes before the "trib,......No scriptural proof. None. Nada. Zilch.

Paul's gathering is from the earth, while the Matthew 24 gathering is from heaven and if we add Luke, heaven and earth. ......It's the SAME gathering.....you're really grasping at straws here. For Pete's sake!

there is simply no written proof that the gathering in Matthew IS Paul's rapture, and there is proof it is not.......ok then, hit me with your best shot....show me the money!

John shows us THE DAY starting in chapter 6, but His coming after the "trib" in chapter 19 - yet you imagine they happen together. Does this bother you at all?......NOPE, doesn't bother me one iota! The Lord's coming isn't in a DAY. Just like His first coming wasn't in a day. It stretched out for some 33 years. Rev 6 is the start of His coming. Rev 19 is the end of His coming

Why not start THE DAY before the week,......because that would be rearranging what is written in scripture. Besides, it's not the FIRST DAY of a week....it's the DAY OF THE LORD!

Do you know HOW God will cut short "the tribulation?"...... Sure do. He cuts it short with the Rapture/Resurrection/Celestial-Terrestial disturbance/Day of the Lord....... 

In fact, WHERE ARE the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of found in Revelation? .....you'll find them in Rev 6

The DAY starts at the 6th seal, just where John wrote that it started. The 70th week then starts, and lasts for 7 years. The DAY continues on AT LEAST until Jesus return in chapter 19. The week ends in chapter 16, so there is TIME for the events of chapter 17 and 18, and at the same time for the marriage and supper. So I wrote it would be OVER or longer than 7 years.

I say the 70th week officially opens with the 7th seal. Can you prove ANOTHER time the 70th week begins?  

Post 70th week is easy: the events of chapters 17 and 18 and at the same time the events of the marriage and supper come AFTER the week and before Christ's coming.  

For your next point: I will have do do further study. I have really spend little time on the Day of the Lord as far as the ending. This may well be another theory that must go into file 13. 

When you see signs in the sun and moon, you imagine they are all the same sign.  When you see two places where "gathering" is mentioned, you imagine they are speaking of the same event. Why not study the details and find out they cannot be the same? 

 

Paul's rapture before.....it will come when people are saying peace and safety - a day just like TODAY... NOT a day like any day after THE DAY has come.  Next, Paul tells us that at the same moment those  alive and in Christ are raised - AT THE SAME TIME - those NOT in Christ get sudden destruction that Paul tells us is the wrath of God. Remember, He will not set any appointments! 

In fact, Paul writes that at that sudden moment in time, while they are reaping the sudden destruction, we are getting salvation by way of rapture out and we will get to live together with Him!  So there IS proof. In Revelation then the rapture would come just before the Day of His wrath. 

Straws? I did not wrote Matthew! Paul's rapture WILL NOT gather from heaven! It is a DIFFERENT gathering!  Is God NOT ALLOWED a second gathering? 

So according to your theory, Jesus is on the earth from the 6th seal to the 7th vial and beyond? Then how does He get back to heaven for the marriage and supper? How about the verse that tells us HE must remain in heaven until His enemies are made His foot stool? This is just about the most far fetched theory I have ever heard!  Why not just believe as the scriptures prove: He is coming TWICE more: first FOR His saints and then later WITH His saints? 

Sorry, but JOHN starts THE DAY before He starts THE WEEK. I just agree with John.  

WRONG answer to both questions! What CAUSES those days of great tribulation? It will be the forced worship of THE IMAGE and the forces acceptance of THE MARK. And these will not be enforced until AFTER chapter 14!  So the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will begin at the midpoint abomination, but get much worse later, after chapter 14.  

HOW will God shorten those days? Just read what comes after chapter 15, when the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. What do we read? God will use THE VIALS of His wrath to shorten those days. 

You have totally rearranged Revelation.  

My AXIOM on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Exactly. And if the change at the gathering takes place in the blink of and eye, it can and will happen in a moment, to millions at the same moment, and so can and will occur on the same day wrath falls. Just like Noah; Noah entered into the ark on the same day the wrath of the flood began and God shut the door to to the ark. That's how it will occur when Jesus comes. We will enter into the ark of His care and He will lock us in safety, and then wrath, on the same day.

That is exactly what Paul tells us in 1 thes. 5: while those in christ are being raptured up and out, those not in Christ are caught in the sudden destruction start of God's wrath. It's church age, or age of Grace, then rapture, then DAY of the Lord - no time between.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well exactly, again. I cannot find it. No one can. Cause it ain't true.

So interesting that millions have found what you could not.  I know why: it is those pesky preconceived glasses you are wearing! they will NOT ALLOW anything pretrib to filter through! 

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

What leads anyone to think "the things which shall be hereafter" is 'after the churches'? Did Jesus or John say this? In fact it's more rational to assume that time is the factor here, the moment of existence, since a time reference fulfills both 'are' and 'hereafter' without adding what isn't there. 

 

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches.

 

You already posted this and it's the same refutation.

 

 

9 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36.

And 'escape' must be a pretrib rapture? Hardly.

Jesus also said in Matt 24, "15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Since the worst ever time occurs just after the A of D, where it was possible that no person would survive, why did Jesus say to run? Should not be necessary since the pretrib rapture would have already happened. Now you could say this is just for the Jews, but through the entire chapter Jesus was speaking to those of His name.

Also in keeping with this theme of running in Matt 24, Luke 21:36 says exactly the same thing. Now I know you and your leaders would love to believe the word 'escape' in Luke 21:36 means 'pretrib rapture' but it does not. The word that appears in Luke 21:36 is 'ekpheugó' and it is defined as:

Short Definition: I flee out, away, I escape
Definition: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

 

This is the personal an individual act of running away from something, and not a forcible removal by an authority from one place to another of an individual or group.

You really have to do the work on this stuff and stop believing what the wolves are telling you to believe. If Jesus meant to say 'pretrib rapture' he had every opportunity to do so, and did not. Luke agrees with the running away from Matt 24. Luke 21:21, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; "

Now why would Luke say this and then go on to say there is as pretrib rapture in 21:36? He would not. The pretrib take on this creates contradictions and subverts the truth.

The true order should occur in this manner:

The beast rises to power after the deadly wound is healed, confirms an existing covenant and protects Israel from the Islamic radicals trying to destroy her while the Temple is being built.

The moment the beast emerges on the world stage the two witness show up in Jerusalem to warn the Jews they have made a huge mistake entering into agreement with this man.

The false prophet is showing his deceptive signs and wonders at this time and the two witnesses demonstrate the power of the Most High in even greater power and authority.

When the beast rises and the witnesses appear trumps begin to sound.

The Temple is completed, the sacrifices begin and shortly after the beast profanes the Temple, blasphemes God, and then declares himself to be the great god.

He kills the two witnesses, the world rejoices and has a big party, and the GT begins.

At the proper time the sign of the coming of the Son of Man appears in heaven and it's all over but the crying. Jesus appears, the 7th trump sounds, elect are gathered, and those who refuse the saving grace of the Lamb and and Almighty God are in danger of meeting a destiny from which there is no return.

This is the literal and conservative approach. It's also the most frightening as it will require endurance and sacrifice. Jesus will be there for us so there is no need to fear. More are with us then are against us.

 

 

 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So interesting that millions have found what you could not.  I know why: it is those pesky preconceived glasses you are wearing! they will NOT ALLOW anything pretrib to filter through! 

You are correct. Pretrib is unsustainable as it fails open examination, and it will never enter my thinking.

Be prepared, there will be no pretrib rapture.

When the deadly wound is healed and the witnesses appear in Jerusalem find me and we can talk further.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That is exactly what Paul tells us in 1 thes. 5: while those in christ are being raptured up and out, those not in Christ are caught in the sudden destruction start of God's wrath. It's church age, or age of Grace, then rapture, then DAY of the Lord - no time between.

It has been the age of grace since time began. Adam and Eve survived through grace. Noah found Grace. It's always been grace. Dispensationalism is just another lie of religious organizations.

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, HAZARD said:

This is not a competition on who gets to have the last word, were all entitles to agree or disagree. The majority disagreed with Jesus and the disciples to the point of murdering Him. Did that make Him wrong in everything He said and did and taught?

Agreed.  Consensus is one of the worst, most unreliable indicators of truth.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It has been the age of grace since time began. Adam and Eve survived through grace. Noah found Grace. It's always been grace. Dispensationalism is just another lie of religious organizations.

There is a very slight similarity between how Noah was saved, how Abraham was saved, how Moses was saved, and how we are saved under the New Covenant: we are ALL saved by grace through faith in God.  (By grace are you saved through faith.)

For Noah, his faith was that God would save him by way of the ark Noah built.  For Abraham, his faith was that God would save him simply because he believed in God and God spoke salvation to him. For Moses, His faith was that God would save him through his keeping the law. Our faith today is that God will save us by our faith in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Why then do you argue against truth?  Why argue against scripture? Does it now read "the Law was until John?" The truth is THINGS CHANGE. The way God has dealt with man has changed over the ages. And the truth is, during the 70th week it will change again. 

There is more: we are in the time of the Gentiles. One day the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, the rapture will take place, and God will focus on Israel once again.  You can doubt these things if you wish, but you will be wrong in your thinking. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are correct. Pretrib is unsustainable as it fails open examination, and it will never enter my thinking.

Be prepared, there will be no pretrib rapture.

When the deadly wound is healed and the witnesses appear in Jerusalem find me and we can talk further.

You are mistaken yet again: pretrib is TRUTH. God is pretrib. 

If you wish to be left behind, God will allow it. It is written that He gives us the desires of our heart. However, I advise you, the better choice would be the BELIEVE Luke was writing the truth when he wrote for us to PRAY to be found worthy to escape what is coming. Again, I think if you spurn God's escape plan, you will be left behind. 

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are mistaken yet again: pretrib is TRUTH. God is pretrib. 

Okay, I actually laughed out loud at that one.