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JW vs the Bible

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JW Belief is first, the Bibilcal position is in bold

  1. Christ is God's Son and is inferior to him. Christ is God. He took on the form of man to come to earth. John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16
  2. Christ died on a stake, not a cross. Christ died on a cross. John 20:25, Matthew 27:37, 27
  3. Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans. Christ life was paid as a ransom for sinners Matthew 9:13, 1 Timothy 1:15
  4. Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. God will create new heavens and earth and new physical laws. God's people will be removed from earth. Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess. 4:16-17
  5. The human soul ceases to exist at death The spirit of man goes to be with God *Ecclesiastes 3:21, Ecclesiastes 12:7
  6. Hell is mankind's common grave. Before Christ, all went to Hades, after Christ only non-believers *Psalms 9:17, Matthew 23:33
  7. The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God. All people who confess Christ as Lord and Savior are born again *John 3:3, John 3:3-7
  8. Christians must give public testimony to Scriptural truth. Christians must give public testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ Romans 1:16, Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 1:17
  9. The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9
  10. Man does not have a spirit. Man has a spirit *Ecclesiastes 3:21
  11. We are to worship Jehovah only. We are to worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:13
  12. Jesus second coming occurred invisibly in 1914 and His kingdom was established in heaven. Jesus will return physically to earth and all alive will see Him as His kingdom is established on earth Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7
  13. The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9
  14. Christ is Michael the Archangel. Christ is not an angel, but God. Hebrews 1:13
  15. Christ was first of God's creations. Christ is co-eternal with God, and as such was not created Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, Hebrews 13:8
Edited by KiwiChristian
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For number 2 a good one is also when Jesus had to carry the cross. 

Do you have one for the trinity... because they do not believe in that?

Edited by Cletus

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6 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

JW Belief is first, the Bibilcal position is in bold

  1. Christ is God's Son and is inferior to him. Christ is God. He took on the form of man to come to earth. John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16
  2. Christ died on a stake, not a cross. Christ died on a cross. John 20:25, Matthew 27:37, 27
  3. Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans. Christ life was paid as a ransom for sinners Matthew 9:13, 1 Timothy 1:15
  4. Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. God will create new heavens and earth and new physical laws. God's people will be removed from earth. Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess. 4:16-17
  5. The human soul ceases to exist at death The spirit of man goes to be with God *Ecclesiastes 3:21, Ecclesiastes 12:7
  6. Hell is mankind's common grave. Before Christ, all went to Hades, after Christ only non-believers *Psalms 9:17, Matthew 23:33
  7. The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God. All people who confess Christ as Lord and Savior are born again *John 3:3, John 3:3-7
  8. Christians must give public testimony to Scriptural truth. Christians must give public testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ Romans 1:16, Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 1:17
  9. The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9
  10. Man does not have a spirit. Man has a spirit *Ecclesiastes 3:21
  11. We are to worship Jehovah only. We are to worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:13
  12. Jesus second coming occurred invisibly in 1914 and His kingdom was established in heaven. Jesus will return physically to earth and all alive will see Him as His kingdom is established on earth Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7
  13. The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9
  14. Christ is Michael the Archangel. Christ is not an angel, but God. Hebrews 1:13
  15. Christ was first of God's creations. Christ is co-eternal with God, and as such was not created Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, Hebrews 13:8

In Charles Taz Russel's doctrine he writes, "The man Jesus is dead, forever dead." 

They may speak different today but their foundational beliefs are far from orthodox. According to them a body without "life force" is non existent. Life force is non personal, life force is life force. God can swap the life force in you with a cow and neither would know.  

They believe the life force from Michael the archangel was placed into the ovum of Mary and guarded by Gods own unique life force until birth. So Jesus was a human body angel hybrid of some sort. But the question is. Michael then became non existent so why did Michael die? If a body without life force is non existent then Michael is non existent. They do not have an answer for that. Do angels have a distinct life force that is personal? Sort of like God's?  I thought ife force is non personal. They do not know. 

They will say "we can't know everything about God or how he works". Interesting, I think that's when they love to get on trinitarians cases when we say something like that.

So who is this spirit creature, a Michael-Jesus-Michael spirit creature sitting at Jahovah's right hand? It can't be the original Michael and the man Jesus is dead forever dead so what or who is at the right hand of God? Again they really don't have an answer for that. If you're sincere and your heart is breaking for them it will show and after they ask you a number of questions answering honestly and sincerely with wisdom you can start asking them a few questions about their beliefs and hopefully they will walk away wanting those answered themselves. Pray and pray when ever you think about them. 

Was also taught that sincerity is key. They sense it and you can have a legitimate conversation. If the situation finds you out of sorts it's best to pass, you could do more harm than good. There are some web pages of people who have dedicated much of their life to witnessing to them. Haven't looked at any for a long time but the info is out there if interested.

If they can pull one junga block from the tower the whole thing could come crashing down. You may be the first to witness to them or the twenty first and final one but pray. They are deceived and only God knows their hearts and I've been taught one of the best ways to speak to those in a cult is to somehow get them questioning what they believe.

And actually they believe, a body + life force  = a living soul. God breathed into man and he became a living soul. That's the scripture they derive at that from.

Edited by Zemke

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Also we are a memory to God. A floppy disc of sorts. If God likes the memory of us he can chose to upload the memory of us into a spirit creature in the future. 

There is no resurrection. They will say they believe in one today but JW'S of the past did not believe in a literal resurrection. But we must define what that resurrection is. We are not a memory to be uploaded into something in the future.

Reading what  Taz Russell wrote is eye opening.

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23 hours ago, Zemke said:

In Charles Taz Russel's doctrine he writes, "The man Jesus is dead, forever dead." 



Then Jesus is NOT their high priest.

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10 hours ago, KiwiChristian said:

Then Jesus is NOT their high priest.

That's a good point and possibly a good way to share with them from the epistle Hebrews. I like that.

Will be interesting to see if they have been trained in a response about that. A few months ago a very young man got out of a car as the older ones stayed in, I was standing in the driveway about to leave for an appointment so it was brief but they are back covering this territory again. 

Lord willing the conversation may go in that direction next time. 

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8 hours ago, Zemke said:

That's a good point and possibly a good way to share with them from the epistle Hebrews. I like that.

Will be interesting to see if they have been trained in a response about that. A few months ago a very young man got out of a car as the older ones stayed in, I was standing in the driveway about to leave for an appointment so it was brief but they are back covering this territory again. 

Lord willing the conversation may go in that direction next time. 

And the Bible lied when it says that Jesus lives FOREVER to make intercession for us.

Another question i like giving them is "who raised Jesus".

They say "God" or "Jehovah".

I say "Amen, i believe that, too. Can you please read Acts 10:40."

This will prove that God the father raised Jesus.

Get them to agree with what THE TEXT SAYS.

"Now, read John 2:19, please"

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up".

Then i ask "Oh, so Jesus rose Himself up?".

They will say "no".

Then ask "Oh, so Jesus lied?"

Again, they will say "no".

By now, they will be frantically looking through their book of pre-programmed responses. Try to get them away from that. 

"No, lets just read the text as it is written"

Then firmly try to get them to go back to the Bible and turn to Romans 8:11 which states the Holy Spirit raised Jesus.

Same questions as for John 2:19.

"So, we have the Bible saying that God the father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all raised Jesus?"

They will probably at this point remember they have another appointment elsewhere. ( hence always good to ask them AT THE START how long they have until their next appointment )

 

The local JW's here took a month to "resolve" John 2:19. They are told that "body" means the church. Yet the word i believe means a physical person. plus, the context CLEARLY shows that Jesus was referring to His physical body.

 

I find debating scripture with them is a waste of time. Instead, attack the foundation of their belief structure, the watchtower itself.

Remember, JW's are taught that you CAN lie to someone if that person does not DESERVE to have the truth. This is in their "guide to Bible understanding" i believe.

 

Other quotes you may find interesting to confront them with:

In subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God has already begun...And that the "battle of the great day of God almighty [revelation 16:14], which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced. [The 1915 edition of this book changed "A.D. 1914" to "A.D. 1915."] *from the book "The Time is at Hand; 1889
 

 "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).
 

"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).

"Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)


"Fight against independent thinking." ( Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )
 

The new book titled Children will prove useful ‘in the remaining months before Armageddon’ (Watchtower, 15 September 1941, p 288)

‘The end of Nazi Fascist hierarchy will come and will mark the end forever of demon rule.’ (Watchtower, 15 December 1941, p 377)

Will the men of Sodom be resurrected?
Yes....Watchtower 7/1879 page 8
No.....Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338
Yes....Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479
No.....Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31
Yes...Live Forever (old Ed.) page 179
No....Live Forever (new Ed.) page 179
Yes...Insight, vol. 2., page 985
No...Revelation book, page 273.
These changes are more like flashing lights, on and off again. How can they be trusted?
 

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?  These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197).

The book "The Finished Mystery" Armageddon was to begin "in the spring of 1918" There was to be "worldwide all-embracing anarchy" in the "fall of 1920." The 1917 edition asserts that Revelation 11:13 would be fulfilled "early in 1918" ["the earthquake"] and in the "fall of 1920" [the fire]. The 1926 edition is again altered.

1904- The stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912- culminating in the end of the "Times of the Gentiles," October 1914. *from the book "The New Creation" 1904

‘Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.’ (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p3)
 

 

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On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 4:21 PM, KiwiChristian said:

JW Belief is first, the Bibilcal position is in bold

  1. Christ is God's Son and is inferior to him. Christ is God. He took on the form of man to come to earth. John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16
  2. Christ died on a stake, not a cross. Christ died on a cross. John 20:25, Matthew 27:37, 27
  3. Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans. Christ life was paid as a ransom for sinners Matthew 9:13, 1 Timothy 1:15
  4. Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. God will create new heavens and earth and new physical laws. God's people will be removed from earth. Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess. 4:16-17
  5. The human soul ceases to exist at death The spirit of man goes to be with God *Ecclesiastes 3:21, Ecclesiastes 12:7
  6. Hell is mankind's common grave. Before Christ, all went to Hades, after Christ only non-believers *Psalms 9:17, Matthew 23:33
  7. The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God. All people who confess Christ as Lord and Savior are born again *John 3:3, John 3:3-7
  8. Christians must give public testimony to Scriptural truth. Christians must give public testimony to the gospel of Jesus Christ Romans 1:16, Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 1:17
  9. The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9
  10. Man does not have a spirit. Man has a spirit *Ecclesiastes 3:21
  11. We are to worship Jehovah only. We are to worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:13
  12. Jesus second coming occurred invisibly in 1914 and His kingdom was established in heaven. Jesus will return physically to earth and all alive will see Him as His kingdom is established on earth Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7
  13. The greatest name is Jehovah. The greatest name is Jesus Christ Ephesians 1:20-22, Philippians 2:9
  14. Christ is Michael the Archangel. Christ is not an angel, but God. Hebrews 1:13
  15. Christ was first of God's creations. Christ is co-eternal with God, and as such was not created Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, Hebrews 13:8

Do they have a book of Jehovah ?  What is the source of their  beliefs ? 

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6 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Do they have a book of Jehovah ?  What is the source of their  beliefs ? 

The source is whatever quote from whatever Biblical source that agrees with them.

A classic pick-n-choose religion. 

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I often wonder why so many protestants think that the JW got it wrong.  The JW are just interpreting scripture their way, just like the protestants.

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      Thomas kneeled before Christ and said...>"my Lord and my GOD",..... and Jesus didn't correct Him.   John 20:28
      Christ said......."touch me not, i have not yet ascended to my Father and yours"........  John 20:17
      The reason the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus is .....1.) Envy.   2.) Legalism: Religious Spirit, and because Jesus said......"Before Abraham was...... I AM"....and this is Jesus referring to Himself "pre incarnate", as in Genesis 1, when He was not yet "God manifested as a man, in the FLESH".    John 8:58    1 Timothy 3:16
      So, we see that Jesus is talking about Himself (referring to Himself as God), before He was later come down from heaven as " God manifested in the FLesh"....... John 8:58 and 1 Timothy 3:16
      Ok then,  i wrote a simple and quick "Trinity" study recently that i'll now post for you to use if you feel like studying all this, that im posting for yuo   
      Here is the rest....
      -
      1.) John 1:10..  If you read it, you'll read that Jesus was in and literally placed His feet on the World HE created.
       
      2. ) Colossians 1:6 says that through JESUS, and by Jesus, all things were created.
       
      3.) 1 Timothy 3:16 says that "God" was manifested, (was made flesh and walked among us as a Man) ""
       
      4. ) John 20:28 says that Thomas the Apostle, upon first seeing Jesus after He rose from the dead , said... "My Lord AND MY GOD"....
       
      JESUS is the "word made flesh".      
      God made all that you see, by speaking words.  "Let there BE...... light, nature, creation, all of it"....>"Let there BE" is like saying, let there BECOME.....   God spoke it, and it (creation)  appeared.
       
      Genesis 1.  In the beginning was the Word and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was/is God.
      So, there you have Jesus as the Word before He was sent here to die, being worshipped as God after He was sent here.
      That is God the Father, and Jesus as the Word made flesh = 2
      Then add the Holy Spirit, the comforter...... = 1
      2 +1 = 3
       
      Three are "One", as Jesus says. "I and my Father are ONE"..... yet, they are each, one of themselves.
       
      "Trinity".
    • By Behold
      Gospel : Paul teaching = "preaching of the Cross". "we preach Christ Crucified"..."Jesus sent me not to baptize but to preach the Gospel".."faith comes by hearing this".....

      So, all that, if believed by an unbeliever resolves an eternal issue......
      What is the issue?
      What is God's purpose for coming to earth to die as Jesus The Christ on a Cross?
      What is He doing?...What is He alone solving, that all our 10 commandment keeping and holy lifestyle can never solve, which is WHY HE had to solve it? ?
      And right here is what is so often misunderstood, or not taught correctly, and this is why so many people who mean well, and love Jesus, or would like to love him, do not understand <>WHAT IS<> the actual reason that God came here to die.

      So what is that reason?
      The reason, is that keeping the law, the 10 commandments, and doing good works, confessing sin, and living as holy as we can, could not make us acceptable to God..
      And here is the "catch 22".... It also can't AFTER you are saved.
      And right here is where "Legalism vs Grace" becomes the touchstone of constant fighting on forums, and everywhere else that it can show up where believers WILL clash.
      (Apparently this clash became such a long standing fight and fury on this forum that members here are barred from posting- fighting about it.)

      It is a fact and statement of the CROSS that the law and the 10 Commandments can't make you righteous, they can only show you that you are unrighteous., as that is the actual purpose of the Law, as well as outlining what God expects regarding our basic moral conduct & behavior, once we are born again.
      So, how can it be that half the body of Christ is trying to keep all this, all these works, and they believe that this is "keeping them saved".
      Whereas the other half of the body of Christ is trusting in Jesus to keep them saved.
      So, do you see the line in the sand?
      Its this " What is keeping you SAVED"....that is the minefield of theological confusion.
      THATS the fight.
      Legalism vs Grace.
      Its happening on every forum like this one, and its the reason for 5000 denominations that don't agree, and 300 bibles that don't agree.
      This issue started with Paul and his preaching of "justification by Faith" >alone, and he wrote the letter to the Galatians that talks about it, and explains it.
      2000 yrs later, this issue of Legalism vs Grace is still a fist fight between "Christians".
      Here on this forum, apparently they outlawed the battle. 

      Isn't it interesting to realize that if the 10 commandments, or lawkeeping, or living holy, could save you or keep you saved, if that were the truth, then Jesus could have stayed in Heaven and saved Himself some PAIN.....
      But ita not the case.
      Now im not certain what you have been taught, but i teach that you "present your body a living sacrifice" and you to "live holy as God is holy", not to save yourself or keep yourself saved, but because this is what you should do, and what God expects, .. because you ARE saved.
      The Legalist would argue that .."no, you do it to stay saved", and if you don't then you're not.
      I wonder, reader, what you believe.
      However, keep it to yourself, as this is between you and God, tho make sure you get it right, as if you get it wrong and you are teaching it, then Galatians 1:8 has become quite a literal issue for you.

      So, leaving all that now, lets just look at the problem that God had to come here and solve for us, as to look at this, is to understand the reason for Salvation which is to understand Salvation.
      Our problem we had, before we were saved, is only one thing, one issue only. And God Himself had to solve it, because we can't.
      We are born, and we get older, and we don't have any righteousness.
      None.
      And so, God can't accept us, because we are UNRIGHTEOUS. 
      This is "lost", "unsaved"....hellbound = we don't have any RIGHTEOUSNESS< as all of ours, are "filthy rags".
      So, in steps SALVATION... Down from Heaven God as The Christ arrives... The Cross has been raised.... As God bleeding out on the "tree" has come down from Heaven to give us HIS righteousness so that He can accept us, based on THAT.......and for no other reason will He accept you, or me.
      God, literally became a man, and died on a Cross, to GIVE US "the righteousness of Christ". (God's very own righteousness).
      And that is what salvation actually is....Its God coming to earth to give us His righteousness so that HE can accept us, as by giving us His very righteousness, this makes us acceptable to God.
      Welcome to Salvation.
      Salvation is only.... "what makes you acceptable to God"....and that is one thing, its GOD'S Righteousness, becoming ours.
      A born again person, has literally BECOME "the righteousness of Christ", and Christ is GOD.

      To say that God's Grace is amazing, is really the least of what it is...
      How can you describe the wonder of God, dying to give you His righteousness in place of your unrighteousness, as a free Gift?
      Is there a word that can even claim to honor this spiritual transaction enough?
      Just one.
      LOVE.
      Agape` Love.
      God is LOVE.
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