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Where did NT Gentiles go after cross when they died ?


Soul Reaper

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Looking for Scriptural basics on how to explain a question which unbeliever asked me ( not man made traditions or because my priest/pastor said so ).

 

The question is following :

Assuming that OT Jews and Gentiles went to either prison or Abraham's bossom and then the gospel was preached to them when Jesus went to Scheol and preached it to them then they rose from the graves :

 

Ephesians 4:9

Matthew 12:40

1 Peter 4:6

1 Peter 3:19

Matthew 27:52

There is no problem explaining that everybody had a chance to listen to the gospel.

But there is problem after Christ rose from the dead.

From the time Christ rose from the dead , if some person died not knowing the gospel then he would burn in hell because only by knowing Jesus people are saved .

 

So we are at example 55 A.D  ( could be 33 I don't mind the exactly date that is to make a point ) .

Apostle Saul just had personal revelation and was born again and renamed Paul , he is now preaching the grace gospel.

 

1) Where did a Roman citizien go before Paul took the gospel to Rome ? Did he go to hell or paradise and Jesus preached to him again ?

Did he have personal revelation from Christ like Paul if such person wanted to be born again ? How can people believe in a gospel least somebody preach to them . We see in Book of Acts that people were even baptised after John's baptism but had to be re-baptised because they never heared of Holy Spirit or of Jesus Christ , the name of Jesus Christ was not revealed to them by anybody .

 

Acts 19 King James Version (KJV)

19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And all the men were about twelve.

And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

 

 

Let's say we are at 100 A.D

Where will all the native tribers or people in China/India go if they have never heared the gospel of Jesus Christ or even his name?

It would be most logicall to have Angel from Heaven proclaim the gospel as fast as Christ rose from the dead , to make sure everybody heared it . But God did not do such thing he said he will do but not now , he said he will do it in Revelation 14:6 but Paul told us to not listen to any angel from heaven now Galatians 1:8-9.

 

Question is :

Why did God not let people in China or India or any natives hear the gospel prior to these people death , he knew for sure apostles won't make it there in time before these people die ?

 

Edited by Soul Reaper
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This problem is solved when one understands that the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) teaching is not in the bible. I believe it is one of two things:

1. The lost are annihilated in the lake of fire (this is the belief I currently hold).

2. Everyone is saved, sort of. That is, God has made it clear that He is not willing that any should perish, yet in his word it says that if Sodom had seen the miracles other cities have seen they would not have perished. So, why would God NOT show them the miracles and save them? The answer, for me, is that they were not "saved", but in an age or two will be. 

Number two speaks to the idea that the words translated "forever and ever", "eternity", "forever", etc. actually are more accurately translated "the age", "for the age" or "for the ages". This means, to me, that the "saved" are present in the next age or three, and the lost may be present afterward. There may be actual different dispensations for different people. 

After all, in the end of Revelation, the saved are allowed to enter the new Jerusalem, which sits in a place on earth, while the rest of people are not. So, who are these other people?

But There is a lot of speculation in my post based on scripture that nobody, IMO, has fully accurately unwound. So I see it as good as any other and better than the ECT explanations. 

If the lost simply die at the second death (hence the name, second "death"), it means they get to enjoy (or not) this earthly life God gave them (which is a true gift) - and then they die, just as our pets do. 

Remember, we don't choose God. He chooses us.

Edited by Still Alive
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4 hours ago, Still Alive said:

This problem is solved when one understands that the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) teaching is not in the bible. I believe it is one of two things:

1. The lost are annihilated in the lake of fire (this is the belief I currently hold).

2. Everyone is saved, sort of. That is, God has made it clear that He is not willing that any should perish, yet in his word it says that if Sodom had seen the miracles other cities have seen they would not have perished. So, why would God NOT show them the miracles and save them? The answer, for me, is that they were not "saved", but in an age or two will be. 

Number two speaks to the idea that the words translated "forever and ever", "eternity", "forever", etc. actually are more accurately translated "the age", "for the age" or "for the ages". This means, to me, that the "saved" are present in the next age or three, and the lost may be present afterward. There may be actual different dispensations for different people. 

After all, in the end of Revelation, the saved are allowed to enter the new Jerusalem, which sits in a place on earth, while the rest of people are not. So, who are these other people?

But There is a lot of speculation in my post based on scripture that nobody, IMO, has fully accurately unwound. So I see it as good as any other and better than the ECT explanations. 

If the lost simply die at the second death (hence the name, second "death"), it means they get to enjoy (or not) this earthly life God gave them (which is a true gift) - and then they die, just as our pets do. 

Remember, we don't choose God. He chooses us.

I appricate your answer but I can't hold such belief because this way my future life would be for ages and not eternal just like torments would be for ages and not eternal .

It's either both or none .

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11 minutes ago, Soul Reaper said:

I appricate your answer but I can't hold such belief because this way my future life would be for ages and not eternal just like torments would be for ages and not eternal .

It's either both or none .

Well, don't go by what somebody tells you, go by what the bible teaches. And remember the ages may be unending - one right after the other. It would make it very interesting. :)

And torments are not for ages or forever if the person is dead. :D

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9 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

And torments are not for ages or forever if the person is dead. :D

Why would God hold people in prison untill Judgement day and not Judge them after they died ? Does not make sense if the torment is limited , but does make sense if torment is eternal .

If it's eternal then does not really matter if person who died 4000 years ago is suffering for  6000 years so far than people who does not believe and die today .

 

But if it's finite torment then it's unjust for one person to be tormented longer than others so they can be anihilated all at the same time in the end .

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2 minutes ago, Soul Reaper said:

Why would God hold people in prison untill Judgement day and not Judge them after they died ? Does not make sense if the torment is limited , but does make sense if torment is eternal .

If it's eternal then does not really matter if person who died 4000 years ago is suffering for  6000 years so far than people who does not believe and die today .

 

But if it's finite torment then it's unjust for one person to be tormented longer than others so they can be anihilated all at the same time in the end .

Why suffer at all? What is the point? Does it make sense to punish someone with a punishment they can not even imagine? Sounds kinda cruel and sadistic. But more importantly, it is not what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that the saved have eternal life and the lost die. The lost and the saved both occupy a body that dies, but the lost actually die in the second death, while the saved are, well, saved from death. 

This is what the bible teaches all over the place. 

http://jewishnotgreek.com/

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6 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

The lost and the saved both occupy a body that dies, but the lost actually die in the second death, while the saved are, well, saved from death.

God makes sure that these who are damned first get bodies back so they can feel then are endlessly tormented . That part is called " second resurrection " only for people who are not blessed.

Because they sinned against Christ , eternal being , therefore they are guilty for eternity .

God would not bother to be resurrecting them simply would anihilate them straight away because all he does is perfect , he does not anihilate them straight away therefore he won't anihilate them at all .

Edited by Soul Reaper
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1 minute ago, Soul Reaper said:

God makes sure that these who are damned first get bodies back so they can feel then are endlessly tormented . That part is called " second resurrection " only for people who are not blessed.

I think you and I are reading different bibles. I don't see that anywhere. 

 

The GWTJ is where those not chosen by Christ are finally destroyed. It's also symbolism. It's a dream. The lost can not live forever because, well, the bible says they don't have eternal life, and also, if you are not born again, you are not born of the spirit, so you don't have eternal life. 

And eternal torment is pointless. It would be incredibly vindictive. Add to that the fact that God said that his will is that none should perish, and yet it also says that the way to destruction is wide, and that God is all knowing and knew who would be saved and who wouldn't. One can logically conclude, therefore, that if ECT is true, then God created billions of people for the express purpose of being tortured for all eternity. 

I see us more like Acorns. Some become trees, but most become dirt.

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43 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I think you and I are reading different bibles. I don't see that anywhere. 

Revelation 20:5-11 King James Version (KJV)

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

 

This is the first , the second resurrection of the dead is below

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

The resurrection of the living / forgiven are prior to 1000 year Kingdom , because we are promised to see Abraham , Isaac and Jacob .

 

The second resurrection is after 1000 years kingdom .

 

There are also multiple judgements not only one . Christians for example are judged at different place than unbelievers .

Edited by Soul Reaper
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20 minutes ago, Soul Reaper said:

Revelation 20:5-11 King James Version (KJV)

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

 

This is the first , the second resurrection of the dead is below

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

The resurrection of the living / forgiven are prior to 1000 year Kingdom , because we are promised to see Abraham , Isaac and Jacob .

 

The second resurrection is after 1000 years kingdom .

 

There are also multiple judgements not only one . Christians for example are judged at different place than unbelievers .

Referring to the Bema seat judgement?

The scripture you posted says nothing about the lost being in eternal torture. Also, it is a dream full of symbolism. The lake of fire is the second death like the lampstands are the churches and the lamb is Jesus. It denotes finality of the human souls cast into it.

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