churches cause divorce?

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, creativemechanic said:

 i was speaking to another professed Christian who made this claim.

Basically they claim  that  churches force  people to marry and then wonder whyChristian divorce statistics are a high.

to elaborate they gave a story of Christian couple who fornicated resulting in a pregnancy who wete made to marry by their church only for the man to fall for another woman years later.

i personally think it's an unfair accusation but has some merit. While there's no forcing that I've observed,there  is an indirect pressure  on singles to get married based on how they are treated which can lead to frustration or anxiousness leading to rash  decisions.

What are your thoughts?

Hi, Paul in his letter to the church at Corinth ( a community with many particular, and perhaps peculiar relationship habits) gave very detailed instructions under inspiration of God for all. It became Biblical guidance regarding the whole subject. See 1 Corinthians 7

Christian Churches that have leadership, elders, that go through the Bible often word by word and verse by verse tend to teach the guidance given in the whole of the Bible and especially as summed up  nicely by Paul.

Statistical numerics are so often misleading regardless of the survey subject that they are pretty much useless.To then use statistics to back up conclusions, instead of reading the Bible, praying, thinking and praying on the word from God via god inspired humans is folly from the get go. Such stuff  is just fodder for the little antichrists already among us that are doing their ministry of distraction from the word of God the Bible, and from prayer, and from thinking on the word of God.

[warrior12]

The Church per se does not force marriage, but a pastor can preach messages that will hit home to the parties attending church.  This may be in context of the scriptural reference to marriage and divorce and also his own examples of worldly situations that can influence or persuade a decision.  Is it a good or bad thing to do so,  it all depends on if it is leading to a biblical perspective of what the Lord desires of matrimony.

I think we must agree, the church elders don't force marriages, but they do encourage and guide younger couples and singles to the importance of marriage to be fruitful in pleasing the Lord and his blessings of it. In that context it is indeed a great following of scripture . 

[Sanctum]

7 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

The Church per se does not force marriage, but a pastor can preach messages that will hit home to the parties attending church.  This may be in context of the scriptural reference to marriage and divorce and also his own examples of worldly situations that can influence or persuade a decision.  Is it a good or bad thing to do so,  it all depends on if it is leading to a biblical perspective of what the Lord desires of matrimony.

I think we must agree, the church elders don't force marriages, but they do encourage and guide younger couples and singles to the importance of marriage to be fruitful in pleasing the Lord and his blessings of it. In that context it is indeed a great following of scripture . 

In the denomination of the church I used to attend it was an accepted teaching that all Christian youth should get married except in extraordinary situations. I heard it taught from the pulpit that single young men were selfish and consumed with a love for money and worldly pleasures, or else they would settle down and raise a family. In private conversation singles were gossiped about as if there was something wrong with them. As an older single girl, I often felt like the object of pity and embarrassment. Divorce was next to nonexistent in that church, but I can't think that kind of pressure toward marriage is healthy.

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, Badjao33 said:

Yes, they are the minority, and while the majority of forced and child marriages take place within that group, it happens in other churches as well. When I was in high school one of my classmates in 10th grade was already married and she was Pentecostal. I'm not sure of her exact age, but she would have probably been 15 or 16 years old at the time. 

Here are a few excerpts from some articles I could find doing a quick google search on the subject. Needless to say, any marriage that is forced or involves a minor would probably end in divorce at some point in the future. I haven't stayed in touch with my classmate, it would be interesting to find out if she remained married to her husband. 

Although there is no empirical data on the subject, the prominent stories of child brides (many of whom have become activists against the practice) overwhelmingly involve being pressured by their families to marry their abuser, who was often involved in their church or religious community. Michelle DeMello, 16 and pregnant, was pressured into marrying her 19-year-old boyfriend, who was also part of her Christian community. Sherry Johnson, who says she was raped repeatedly as a child by her church’s deacon and bishop, became pregnant at age 11 and was forced to marry the deacon, who was 20 years old. These are just the stories that are well-known.

https://www.salon.com/2018/03/11/banning-child-marriage-in-america-an-uphill-fight-against-evangelical-pressure/

Christian group seeks Kansas retreat for families wanting ‘young, fruitful marriages’ for children

A Christian group that advocates for early, “fruitful” marriage is promoting a retreat in Wichita this fall designed to bring together families who are “actively, deliberately seeking a marriage for one or more of their children.”

The “Get Them Married” retreat, originally planned for Nov. 3-6 at Camp Hiawatha in Wichita, is still a goal for Vaughn Ohlman, who runs the Let Them Marry ministry and website.

But an outcry from critics Thursday prompted Camp Hiawatha officials to refuse the group’s request to rent the venue.

According to biblical interpretations posted on the site, supporters believe it best for girls to be married before age 20, and that their consent is not necessary.

“Scripture speaks of the father of the son ‘taking a wife’ for his son, and the father of the bride ‘giving’ her to her husband,” Ohlman writes, citing passages from Jeremiah, Judges, Ezra and other books.

“It gives example after example of young women being given to young men, without the young woman even being consulted, and often, in some of the most Godly marriages in Scripture, the young man is not consulted.”

How early should girls marry? For some, as young as age 13, says the Let Them Marry website.

According to Ohlman, a girl is ready for marriage when she has breasts, which “promise enjoyment for her husband.” A girl also should be “ready to bear children” and “ready for sexual intercourse sexually and emotionally,” Ohlman writes.

“We do not endorse marriage at ages as young as twelve.”

After news of the Wichita retreat began circulating online Thursday, Ohlman took to his blog to address critics who said the concept of the retreat was offensive and possibly illegal.

Vaughn Ohlman, a father of six, believes that not only should most people marry, but they should marry in their youth. He also adheres to the “quiverfull” movement, which promotes procreation and eschewing all forms of birth control.

“We believe it incumbent upon the church, the family, and even the young people themselves to strive to promote young, fruitful marriages,” he said on his site, “to break the chains of false, unbiblical doctrine that has forbidden and delayed marriage.”

Laura Ohlman said the idea behind the retreat isn’t to force girls or young women into marriages they don’t want, but rather to bring like-minded families together for fun and fellowship. Most of the participants interested in marriage would be 18 or older, she said.

“We’re a conservative church, but even in Kansas there aren’t many of us around,” she said, chuckling. “We thought it would be great to just spend time together, play games, have meals – and if there were some marriageable people there who might be interested in that, great.

“We’re not trying to sell a method.”

https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article76002222.html

Sonora Fairbanks, now 39, was married when she was 16 to a man more than 10 years older.

Fairbanks was raised in a deeply Christian family, home-schooled and not allowed to date. She said her parents began talking to her about marrying her future husband when she was 15, partly for her to avoid teenage wildness, and she went along with it because she felt stifled and thought the only way to escape was through marriage. Oh, and she was eager to discover sex. “I was a typical horny teenager,” she explained. (Fairbanks’s marriage turned poisonous and eventually disintegrated.)

It’s frustrating that legislators cling to archaic marriage laws linked to so much abuse; at Unchained at Last, the spreadsheet listing marriage laws by state is labeled “BYHAWS,” short for Banging Your Head Against the Wall Spreadsheet. But now, with Delaware leading, it seems the wall may finally be giving way.

“We finally have one state that shows us that it’s possible,” Reiss told me. “One state down, 49 to go.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/01/opinion/sunday/child-marriage-delaware.html

One popular courtship story that was told and retold in home-school circles during the 1990s was that of Matthew and Maranatha Chapman, who turned their history into a successful career promoting young marriage. Most audiences, however, didn't realize just how young the Chapmans had in mind until the site Homeschoolers Anonymous and the blogger Libby Anne revealed that Matthew was 27 and Maranatha was 15 when they married. Libby Anne also drew mainstream attention to Matthew Chapman's writings, in which he argued that parents should consider marriage for their daughters in their "middle-teens." At that point the Chapmans stopped receiving quite so many speaking invitations.

Child marriage advocate Vaughn Ohlman followed more or less the same arc. He made a career out of speaking at home-school conventions until the wider world heard tell — again thanks to Homeschoolers Anonymous — of his planned retreat for families to arrange child marriages.

"Duck Dynasty" star Phil Robertson advocated for adult men to marry 15- and 16-year-old girls and deemed age 20 too old because "you wait until they get to be 20 years old, the only picking that's going to take place is your pocket." Home-school leader Kevin Swanson, whose 2015 convention was attended by several Republican presidential candidates, defended Robertson on his radio show after the story broke. Advocating for child marriage hasn't slowed down Robertson's career. He just got a new show on the conservative digital network CRTV.

As a teenager, I attended a lecture on courtship by a home-school speaker who was popular at the time. He praised the idea of "early courtship" so the girl could be molded into the best possible helpmeet for her future husband. The girl's father was expected to direct her education after the courtship began so she could help her future husband in his work.

In retrospect, I understand what the speaker was really describing: Adult men selecting and grooming girls who were too young to have life experience. Another word for that is "predation."

Much of the sexual abuse that takes place in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, or IFB, churches involves adult men targeting 14- to 16-year-old girls. If caught, the teenage victim may be forced to repent the "sin" of having seduced an adult man. Former IFB megachurch pastor Jack Schaap argued that he should be released from prison after being convicted of molesting a 16-year-old girl, asserting that the "aggressiveness" of his victim "inhibited [his] impulse control." In the wake of the Schaap case, numerous other stories emerged of sexual abuse cover-ups involving teenage girls at IFB churches. In another high-profile case, pregnant 15-year-old Tina Anderson, who was raped by a church deacon twice her age, was forced to confess her "sin" to the congregation.

Prominent conservative Reformed theologian Doug Wilson has a documented history of mishandling sexual abuse cases within his congregation. Nevertheless, he continues to be promoted by evangelical leaders such as John Piper, whose Desiring God site still publishes Wilson's work. When a 13-year-old girl in Wilson's congregation was sexually abused, Wilson argued that she and her abuser were in a parent-sanctioned courtship, and that this was a mitigating factor.

There's no shortage of such stories. A Presbyterian Church in America, or PCA, pastor attempted to discipline a woman who warned home-school parents of the convicted sex offender in his congregation. (The sex offender had gone online to solicit a 14-year-old girl for sex.) Another PCA church allowed that same convicted sex offender to give the invocation at a home-school graduation ceremony. He wasn't perceived as an attempted child rapist, and he was "repentant."

Growing up, I witnessed an influential religious right leader flirting with some of my teenage friends and receiving neck and shoulder massages from one of them. I've been expecting a scandal to break with him for years, but in the meantime, this man has put significant time into campaigning for anti-trans bathroom bills while deeming trans people "predators."

The allegations against Roy Moore are merely a symptom of a larger problem. It's not a Southern problem or an Alabama problem. It's a Christian fundamentalist problem. Billy Graham's grandson, Boz Tchividjian, who leads the organization GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment), believes that the sexual abuse problem in Protestant communities is on par with that in the Catholic Church.

The evangelical world is overdue for a reckoning. Women raised in evangelicalism and fundamentalism have for years discussed the normalization of child sexual abuse. We've told our stories on social media and on our blogs and various online platforms, but until the Roy Moore story broke, mainstream American society barely paid attention. Everyone assumed this was an isolated, fringe issue. It isn't.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brightbill-roy-moore-evangelical-culture-20171110-story.html#

Forced marriages are exceedingly rare, about as rare as brothers marrying sisters. Now if you want to talk about Islam and how they force 4-7yr girls to marry 50-70yr old men and how their prophet Muhammad betrothed and married little girls like Aisha (age 6-7), Hafsa (age 6-7), and Zaynab (age 6-7). 

Full names of the child wives: Aisha bint Abu Bakr, Hafsa bint Umar, and Zaynab bint Khuzayma. 

-The Wives of Muhammad, Wikipedia 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[warrior12]

43 minutes ago, Sanctum said:

In the denomination of the church I used to attend it was an accepted teaching that all Christian youth should get married except in extraordinary situations. I heard it taught from the pulpit that single young men were selfish and consumed with a love for money and worldly pleasures, or else they would settle down and raise a family. In private conversation singles were gossiped about as if there was something wrong with them. As an older single girl, I often felt like the object of pity and embarrassment. Divorce was next to nonexistent in that church, but I can't think that kind of pressure toward marriage is healthy.

You are right in that pressure towards marriage is not healthy.   The pulpit message should first and foremost show why marriage is good and how God blesses those who do so.  A pastor can give examples to demonstrate the straying from the pathways that God has outlined for fruitful living  as a believer and the consequences of disobeying that pathways.  Sometime it may sound harsh to the younger person, but as they get older, they in turn would appreciate the teaching that kept them in the straight pathways.

Gossip is never a good thing, as it creates insecurity and demeans others who are the recipients of those gossips.  The elders in the church has a responsibility to teach the younger ones and to do so with love and dignity.  They have to create atmosphere where those with questions can come to them with some sense of security and privacy in a matter.  All that said, the importance of marriage to the christian should always be reference back to scripture first.  Fornication, adultery and promiscuity are sins that is not to be taken lightly and yes the church should warn about them.

There is provision for divorce in the bible, but very very limited and almost nonexistent, also God said he hates it.

There is also scripture reference for those who choose to remain single as good also, providing they live holy lives.          

Here is a good article on why God hates divorce and a little about marriage.

     https://www.gotquestions.org/God-hates-divorce.html      

[dr3032]

What causes divorce is the lack of regard for marriage, whether in the church or out of it.

Even if people ar bound in marriage because of a reckless night between the two, that bonding does little to make the marriage work. My parents were NOT suited for one another. They were young and wild, drunk and sexually active party-goers. They would argue when they were sober, then they'd get drunk, and run off to engage in trysts with strangers as a way of revenge on one another. When my older brother came along, my mom's parents pretty much forced my dad to marry my mom. It was either marry her, or they would continue to harry him with harassment and police. They tried to make it work, they even figured that having me might fix their problems (somehow), but being bound in marriage didn't change the fact that they were ill-suited for one another. Cue a massive fight that ended up with a broken table and not seeing my mom for some years afterwards.

So, who is to blame here; my grandparents for forcing them into marriage, or my parents for having such loose sexual morals to begin with? In my eyes, I think everyone in the situation was at least somewhat worthy of blame. That begs many difficult questions though, ones that make the whole process far too difficult. Reality is stranger than fantasy, as it were.

In my experience, you get both judgements, being single. Certain churchgoers say that you should get married, to not marry is to live in sin, even if such an idea directly goes against scripture. Non-Christians, the vast majority of them, wholly support sleeping around and doing it without a guilty consience. On the one hand, why am I not married and why must I continue in my sin. One the other, why am I not hooking up with random women and why am I a virgin?

Both groups are annoying, but I have learned to not pay other people much heed. If they have a problem with me, then it is their problem, not mine.