Do You Really Love The Sinner Hate The Sin

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

What's missing?

The bad news.

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Do you not think that knowing that God, the creator of all things, loved mankind so much that He sent His only son to suffer unimaginable pain and torture and die for our sins in such a humiliating way as to be nailed to a cross isn't enough to convict a person? Once a person finally comes to the realization of this with the help of the Holy Spirit, regardless if they believe they are sinners or not, they will be pierced to the heart. 

Why do they need worried about their sin?  Why should it matter to them if they are sinners or not?  Why is that even an issue?

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Actually if you read their biographies you will find they had a lot of resistance because of their lack of progress. 

 I have read them.   The resistance to the Judsons came from the East India Company and they denied him the ability to stay in India. He is further criticized, even today, for using the sacred language of Buddhism to translate the Bible into the Burmese language.  

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Earlier in the thread you said that it was. 

 

No I didn't.  I said, The good news that sinful, wretched man can be redeemed, that God has provided a means for man to be healed, restored, delivered and put back into right standing with God."   That is not the same things as preaching the cross, the means of appropriating the Gospel.

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Sin and redemption are not the heart of the gospel.  That is a self serving gospel. The heart of the gospel Is Jesus Christ. 

They are part of what we are supposed to be preaching and are not self-serving at all.  

When you actually start making disciples, you are in a position to tell us how to do it.   

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, one.opinion said:

Honestly, I haven't read all posts in this 54 page thread, but are you sure he is telling everyone else how to evangelize, or is he explaining what he is doing?

He has been telling us exactly what he thinks the rest of us are doing wrong because we don't "befriend" sinners as a ministry practice. 

And he presumes to tell us what will or will not work while what he is doing doesn't work. 

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Do you consider it impossible that God would have someone sow seeds of the Good News for years without visible results?

Absolutely not. 

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Who do you think is doing more to serve the people in the Philippines for the cause of Christ, Badjao or those of us 8,000 miles away?

All I can say is that no one is going to Hell under my ministry.

 

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Are you certain you aren't letting your personal animosity toward a brother in Christ cloud your perception of what he is doing? 

Yes, I am certain.  I am operating off of his own admittance that this ministry isn't producing any results. 

[Steve_S]

22 hours ago, Davida said:

 seriously, this shows you do not know how to read & understand the scriptures. Really not sure what version of christianity you follow but seems to have  unbiblical & heretical ideas.  

Removed from thread.

[Steve_S]

22 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Psst .   hey SIS  .  shhhhh,    its becoming quite plain badjoas evangelism came straight from men like warren and seeker friendly .    take a peep at another thread ,  you will see

that UNCHURCHED word and more .     Shhh.      keep this our secrete .      OOOPS ,   I guess I forgot this can be seen by all.     

Removing from thread.

[Steve_S]

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Just going off your own admittance that you are not actually making any disciples for Christ. 

Yeah, and it is the same old statement that you can't save anyone.   No one is saying that you can or should save anyone.  So you can get off that hobby horse.  When you're not getting any results, none whatsoever, that might be an indication that a change is necessary. 

 

Don't even try to put yourself in the same boat with those men.  They were pioneers and they went into  areas that had no exposure to the Gospel whatsoever and had to start with nothing.   You don't come close to sharing the stage with them. 

It's not the number of converts at all.   But when there is no visible fruit, when there are no disciples being made, you can sit here and lecture us all day.  But it's like someone who is $100,000 in credit card debt trying to teach others about money management. 

Perhaps you should tell the whole truth and not your edited version of the Gospel that leaves out a large portion of the truth about Hell, sin and repentance.

Removed from thread.

[Blood Bought 1953]

4 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

We can choose to believe, and once we do, true inward repentance comes by the work of Christ in us. 

Repenting on our own is a false repentance and does not lead to salvation. When a person hears the Gospel, recognizes they are sinners, and they decide to turn from their sins or change their lifestyle, that is not true repentance. 

The gospel is not a call to repentance, it'ts a call to believe.

 “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)

True repentance takes place AFTER we believe. "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17) It occurs because of Christ in us.

Someone posted an article from Dr. Harry Ironside in another thread, but here is what he has to say on repentance which I also agree with. 

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Galatians 2:20)

 

I was the “ somebody” that sent the Ironside stuff.He wisely points out that we just can’t take anything that is pleasing from the Bible and declare it the “Gospel” . Paul defined the Gospel in 1 Cor15:1-4.It is specific.There is much good news in the Bible, but that does not mean it is the Gospel.” This is the Gospel thAt we proclaim” said Paul— specifically it is the Resurrection of Christ and belief in that is what saves.

“Anyone can come to God, but no one comes lest the Spirit draw him.”The initiative is God’s—- not ours.He is the One, by means of the Holy Spirit who sets the whole thing in motion by gifting us with a contrite heart.That heart that has been broken and humbled.The heart of the man who had come to the end of himself as being good enough to be saved...... “God, have mercy on me a sinner” or any equivalent is what God wants to hear.......then and ONLY then can He work with you.I’ve heard hundreds of preachers over the years who disagree on almost everything, yet I have NEVER heard a preacher say a Man did not have to see himself as lost before he can be saved.Any presentation of the Gospel should include the scary parts of the Sermon on the Mound ( you commit adultery if you simply have a lustful thought) and a healthy dose of the first chapter of Romans ( NO man has really obeyed or wanted to obey God) Preaching the Gospel without showing a man WHY he needs to believe it will be a weak presentation of the PURPOSE of the Gospel.Responding to the saving message of the Gospel just to stay out of Hell isnt the most romantic of notions, but it will work.” Anything to get them in” is how  I have heard it put.Only a fool would not fear Hell .The Gospel is the remedy.

 

[GandalfTheWise]

Over decades, I've seen a lot of sloppy usage of "repentance" among Christians.  FWIW, here's a quick take on my understanding of what it is and where it fits into things.

From Acts, it is clear that Paul taught repentance and belief both as being important.  For example,  I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.  Acts 20:21 NIV   First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20 NIV.  The disciples in Jerusalem seemed to have a similar view as expressed in Acts 11:18, When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”  From these, it appears to some degree that repentance precedes or accompanies belief and salvation.  In addition, there seems to be a secondary usage whereby Christians who become aware of something wrong do something to address it (such as Paul addressing the Corinthian believers to deal with a situation in the church there).  In both cases, the primary greek word which describes a shift in one's thinking about something (which could represent either a huge paradigm shift in world outlook or a simple change of opinion on a matter) are used.

My observation is that Christians often define repentance exclusively as something like "turning from sin", "acknowledging our sins", "being grieved enough by sin to quit doing it", or similar such notions.  What is lacking in these definitions is that we don't acknowledge our powerlessness to completely change and our inability to completely stop sinning and our need for God to change us and put a new nature inside of us.  Repentance is not only fessing up to sinful acts but seeing our sinful nature for what it is.  It is seeing ourselves as having a sin nature that we cannot change and that requires God's intervention to do something about.  It is moving from the position of thinking "if I try hard enough I can clean up enough to please God" to thinking "I cannot possibly get rid of sin in my life and need God to do it".  Over the years, I've lost track of the number of Christians who believe and teach that it is up to Christians to clean up their own lives.  They give lip service to being a new creation and being transformed and being saved by faith, but they turn holiness into having enough willpower and discipline and desire to follow every command in the Bible that they can find.  They often teach and counsel people that living a Christian life is much like learning to keep a series of New Year's resolutions.  I'm not talking false teachers here.  I am talking sincere believers in Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit inside of them that see giving up sin as the result of their choices and self-control.  They believe and teach that any sin in our life is due to our failure to change or repent or because we love sin more than God.  They give lip service to sin being a consequence of having a sin nature, but when push comes to shove they blame themselves (and others) for not trying hard enough to change.  Repentance thus become defined as something like "trying hard to stop sinning" or "trying hard enough to successfully stop sinning".   Many Christians no longer see repentance as a change in outlook to see ourselves as God sees us but as related to our ability to feel strongly enough about sin to change ourselves.

Over the years, I've come to see repentance (which accompanies salvation) as this.  Repenting is seeing the reality that we are sinful beings (who commit sinful acts) and who are unable to change ourselves (have a sin nature).  We can try to stop sinning with limited success, but we cannot eliminate sin from our lives.  We finally see ourselves as needing God not only to forgive our sins but to change our very nature so that sin no longer rules over us.  We undergo a paradigm shift where we move from seeing ourselves in the wrong way to the right way.  We are infected with sin to our very core and slave to it.  We need God both to forgive us and to change us so that we are free from sin.  The Christian life is about our new nature overcoming the old nature.  There are some things we can simply change by deciding to do so.  However, there are some things in our lives that are rooted in our old nature than can only be overcome as our new nature grows and matures and comes to rule in our lives.  There is the "minor" change of opinion where we recognize something needs to change and we simply do so.  Then there is the life-changing paradigm shift where we realize that we are deeply infected and bound by sin and require a Savior both to forgive us and give a us new perfect nature.  The way I see the salvation-accompanying repentance is that it is the paradigm shift that occurs with the horror and shame and fear and guilt of realizing that we are infected with sin to our very core and have committed heinous acts against others and God along with the realization that we cannot do anything about it and that we are doomed to be cast out with all the other evil in the world.  We are then in a position to put our trust and confidence in God through Christ's atoning work and a new birth through the Holy Spirit whereby we are forgiven and adopted as children and a new creation and nature is put within us.

I see repentance as more about having a change of mind where we stop seeing things through our eyes and start seeing things through God's eyes.  It can be a world-changing paradigm shift of seeing the need for a Savior or the realization that something needs to change in our life.  When we truly see something through God's eyes, it will change how we see things and the decisions we make.  Repentance alone does not give us the power to stop sinning, it is the new creation and new nature inside of us that does that.  Repentance helps us see things at we ought to.  It is the transforming work of God inside of us that empowers us to then walk as we ought to.

 

 

 

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Very tired tonight.......will attempt to respond to this post tomorrow( Tuesday ) God bless.

[Blood Bought 1953]

Nice song here......I don’t know how it got here and I wish I knew how to get rid of it.....I don’t, so enjoy it if you like......I think it’s kinda catchy.......lol

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:20 PM, Badjao33 said:

I was going to quote you from that thread, but things were getting so ugly here in this thread that I didn't want to draw you into to it.

I don't agree with everything Dr. Ironside teaches, but I do agree with his way of explaining repentance.  I highlighted part of your quote that I am in disagreement with and I will explain why. 

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) 

The world’s sin is unbelief in me; there is righteousness available because I go to the Father and you shall see me no more; there is deliverance from judgment because the prince of this world has already been judged. (John 16:9-11 NLT)

The sin of the world is unbelief and unbelief is the greatest sin as it's at the root of all outward sin. "…everything that does not come b

from faith is sin” (Romans 14:23) Since unbelief is the sin which keeps us from Christ, then unbelief is the only sin we need to turn away from and where we should focus our gospel message to unbelievers in my opinion. In other words, help someone to believe, and they will be saved.

If we can help someone to believe, it will be the Holy Spirit who will convict them of their outward sins once they become believers. This is why I disagree with putting so much focus on outward sins and preaching Hell in leading someone to Christ in most cases. Not all cases, but most. 

A Muslim for example already understands the concept of outward sin and may feel worldly regret for the sins they commit, but they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so they are not convicted of their sins to a point of having Godly sorrow. Rather than telling them they are going to Hell for being sinners, we need to teach them that Jesus is the Son of God in a gentle and respectful way. This would also be true for many Animists since most believe in one creator of the universe and everything in it. 

Many atheist consider most Christians to be hypocrites for pointing out the sins of others because the the Christians telling people they are sinners are guilty of sin themselves. An atheist doesn't need to know God to see this, so rather than approach them with that angle, why not take an an approach in trying to show them that God is real instead?

In cases where someone's sin is hurting others, adultery for example, I could see going with the condemnation to Hell approach, but I can find no evidence where Paul ever evangelizes using this method, so it should only be used in rare occasions in my opinion.   

Someone who is familiar with church and was brought up in a Christian household in America for example has already heard about sin and how they will go to hell if they don't accept the gospel, this would apply to just about every American. So why should we keep harping on that when trying to reach them? They may believe in a god or even the God, but like the atheist, why not try to teach them that the one true God is real and He loved us so much that He sent His only Son to die for us so that we may have eternal life?  

Unbelief is what condemns all of mankind. 

He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

Personally I feel that the basic gospel message alone has the power to save without any additions on our part. 

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; he was buried; and he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures... righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.  Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (1 Corinthians 15:3,4)(Romans 3:22)(Acts 16:31)

Sharing that message along with our personal testimony in how we came to Christ and how He has been working in our lives can go a long way in helping someone overcome the sin of unbelief. 

I also feel this verse below is one of the most crucial when it comes to understanding the power of the gospel:

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” (Romans 1:17)

Getting someone to believe is crucial. I feel that the redemption from outward sins and condemnation to Hell for those sins has been heard by most unbelievers, especially in the west, and since those preaching this message are guilty of sin themselves, it's not that effective. How can people believe that message when they see so much sin taking place within the Church today? 

I know you and many others will not agree with me on all of this, but I don't think there's a one size fits all method when it comes to sharing the gospel and I believe that focusing on the sin of unbelief is far more important that focusing on the outward sins. 

 

 

Sorry for the delay and thank you for your consideration in trying not to involve me in this cantankerous debate .I don’t care to wade in with my 2 cents.

i have been having trouble trying to figure out how to respond to your post —— it’s kinda all over the place, no insult intended .

I agree that there is no “ one size fits all” when it comes to preaching the Gospel—- all Paul seemed to care about was getting the message out.He was kinda sneaky about it.He would  be one thing to one group and he could feign interest and respect for those that had many false gods , patiently waiting until he got the chance to talk about the idol dedicated to the “ unknown god”.He always seemed to go out of his way to be kind and patient with his audience— no hint of a slobbering, finger- pointing message of condemnation a la Jimmy Swaggert.

In your continuing debate, I think It would be of great value to see how Paul actually handled things.An excellent example one could follow is how he handled King Agrippa......sorry.....gotta go....got daughter trouble....I will try to continue tomorrow......please read Acts 26 to see how Paul handled repentance,etc and we can take it from there while learning from the best......apologies again....

Back.......PLEASE pray for my daughter.....God bless you all

Back to Agrippa......Paul  informed this King what Jesus told him to do and he explained how he went about things. Jesus told Paul the reason He chose him.Paul was sent to be a witness to the things Jesus taught him—- to open the eyes and deliver people from the power of Satan and that they could be delivered from sin and receive forgiveness by faith in Him. He preached repentance and turning to God and doing good works to show that they had repentant hearts.Seems to be a lot of sin and Satan stuff in Paul’s message.Perhaps your preaching of the Gospel should resemble Paul’s manner to get better results.I think I understand what you mean with your method.A man could hear the Gospel and not immediately respond with faith, but years later could remember it and respond correctly with belief in it ,IF and WHEN he saw how desperately he needed it.That could be a terrible gamble to take.He May never get that future chance. “ Fear Of God is the BEGINNING of Wisdom”.  Moses was the friend of God but shook in terror at His presence . Jeremiah said that the fear of God causes man to depart from evil.I know from my own experience that I had no use for God until I saw the truth of what I was in God’s eyes and had the you- know-what scared out of me.Funny how an agnostic fool can be turned around so quickly when confronted with the reality of Hell.The change of mind that happened to me that changed my entire life has to be the repentance God wants for Salvation.As I have said before, I changed from a person who was deluded and quite content in my Fool’s Paradise That said “ I’m good enough” to a person who could only say, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” I would advise any Soul-Winner to convince a man he is subject to some very, very bad news before I told him the “ Good News”. Convince your audience what they need to see - the whole scary picture— while you have them listening. You are leaving them short with a timid Gospel if you don’t.

 

on another note .....I agree with your thoughts on unbelief.......Christ died for every sin ever committed......The sins of Adolf Hitler were paid for 2000 years ago.....He is in Hell today because of his unbelief......just like your average Joe  Schmoe non- Believer........their sins were forgiven, but because of unbelief they did not “ cash  -  in”, so to speak.....(Sorry Adolf for using you for an example all the time)

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Blood Bought 1953