Jump to content
IGNORED

A place for rapture questions


WailingWall

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  458
  • Content Per Day:  0.11
  • Reputation:   329
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/25/2012
  • Status:  Offline

20 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

It is also true that the innumerable multitude spoken of in Rev 7:9-17 are the redeemed taken in the rapture, and we are seen standing before the throne of God in Heaven.

Not true Steve

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 4 winds blow – A great multitude {the great army of  Ezek.37 v 10}

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

The 4 winds blow – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} – They are brought to Israel and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim – A great army -

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 4 winds blow – God gathers His elect {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation as the last trumpet {and its a great trumpet} sounds

Edited by WailingWall
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  401
  • Content Per Day:  0.18
  • Reputation:   226
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  02/19/2018
  • Status:  Offline

16 hours ago, WailingWall said:

Not true Steve

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 4 winds blow – A great multitude {the great army of  Ezek.37 v 10}

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

The 4 winds blow – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} – They are brought to Israel and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim – A great army -

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 4 winds blow – God gathers His elect {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation as the last trumpet {and its a great trumpet} sounds

5

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WW, you have zeroed in on the mention of the four winds in three different passages of Scripture. If I understand you correctly, you are implying that it is a technical term that means more than north, south, east, and west. If the four winds is a technical term that refers to something other than the directions of the compass, and it means consistently the same thing throughout the Scriptures, then We would conclude that these winds will be held by four angels in the future. This holding either prevents the winds from blowing upon the earth, sea, and trees causing them to be hurt. Or it means that if they release the winds the earth, sea and trees will be hurt corresponding to the first four trumpet judgements. Also, it would be true that the breath that gives life comes from the four winds and that they in a future day will bring to life the whole house of Israel. Lastly, from these 3 texts, we see that at Christ's arrival the elect is gathered from these four winds. So, they can help or hurt the earth, sea, and trees, they can give life to the dead so that they are resurrected, and they are that from which the elect are gathered.

But we shouldn't rely only upon these three references to inform us concerning the four winds, we should look at every reference to them.

Jer 49:36  And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Dan 7:2  Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 8:8  Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Dan 11:4  And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Zec 2:4  And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
Zec 2:5  For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
Zec 2:6  Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:7  Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8  For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Considering all the evidence it doesn't look like you have support for your claims.

Also, the great multitude is made up primarily Gentiles, as it is said that they are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". The word "nations" is translated from ethnos which is the word most often translated Gentile.

They don't look like the same group to me.

Glory to Jesus Christ

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  74
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  1,238
  • Content Per Day:  0.55
  • Reputation:   669
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/26/2018
  • Status:  Offline

22 hours ago, WailingWall said:

Could you show me the scripture from Rev.7 thats says the throne of God is in heaven?

Hi Wailingwall...

The throne in heaven is described in Rev 4:1-5. It is the throne of God.

Rev 7:15 says....." therefore, they are before the throne of God"

Same throne,  Rev 4 places it in heaven

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Non-Conformist Theology
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  48
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,139
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   796
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  10/20/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 9/29/2018 at 1:34 AM, WailingWall said:

After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven?

Nope not one

The only way one gets to Heaven is at death.Those who have died come back with Christ from Heaven ,those alive at that time will be changed to like those coming from Heaven.

ALL are changed,not just those in Christ,the difference is in the state of your soul,ie,mortal or immortal,contrary to what most think,the soul is not automatically immortal.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  458
  • Content Per Day:  0.11
  • Reputation:   329
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/25/2012
  • Status:  Offline

17 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WW, you have zeroed in on the mention of the four winds in three different passages of Scripture. If I understand you correctly, you are implying that it is a technical term that means more than north, south, east, and west. If the four winds is a technical term that refers to something other than the directions of the compass, and it means consistently the same thing throughout the Scriptures, then We would conclude that these winds will be held by four angels in the future. This holding either prevents the winds from blowing upon the earth, sea, and trees causing them to be hurt. Or it means that if they release the winds the earth, sea and trees will be hurt corresponding to the first four trumpet judgements. Also, it would be true that the breath that gives life comes from the four winds and that they in a future day will bring to life the whole house of Israel. Lastly, from these 3 texts, we see that at Christ's arrival the elect is gathered from these four winds. So, they can help or hurt the earth, sea, and trees, they can give life to the dead so that they are resurrected, and they are that from which the elect are gathered.

But we shouldn't rely only upon these three references to inform us concerning the four winds, we should look at every reference to them.

Jer 49:36  And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

Dan 7:2  Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 8:8  Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Dan 11:4  And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Zec 2:4  And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
Zec 2:5  For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
Zec 2:6  Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:7  Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8  For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

Mar 13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Considering all the evidence it doesn't look like you have support for your claims.

Also, the great multitude is made up primarily Gentiles, as it is said that they are "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". The word "nations" is translated from ethnos which is the word most often translated Gentile.

They don't look like the same group to me.

Glory to Jesus Christ

Hello SC

So which of the scriptures concerning the 4 winds is NOT talking about the scattering or gathering of Gods people? Just read them all. I cant find a one

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  458
  • Content Per Day:  0.11
  • Reputation:   329
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/25/2012
  • Status:  Offline

14 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Wailingwall...

The throne in heaven is described in Rev 4:1-5. It is the throne of God.

Rev 7:15 says....." therefore, they are before the throne of God"

Same throne,  Rev 4 places it in heaven

Hey JoeCanada

Think weve been over this already

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Jesus returns to earth His throne is returning with Him

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

On 10/3/2018 at 7:00 AM, WailingWall said:

Hey JoeCanada

Think weve been over this already

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Jesus returns to earth His throne is returning with Him

 

 

I would respectfully disagree.  According to the the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7) in the OT and affirmed by Gabriel (Luke 1:32) when he appeared to Mary and told her she would bear the Messiah, Yeshua will be ruling in the authority of David's throne here on earth, the earthly throne in Jerusalem over the restored nation of Israel and by extension, the entire earth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

On 9/30/2018 at 9:12 PM, Steve Conley said:

It is also true that the innumerable multitude spoken of in Rev 7:9-17 are the redeemed taken in the rapture, and we are seen standing before the throne of God in Heaven.

 

I would assert that those standing before the throne are those martyred from the 5th seal.  The 24 elders are those that were caught up earlier.  They are on thrones around the throne of God, but do not stand before the throne of God.  Peter says we are a royal priesthood.  The 24 Elders claim to be kings and priests (royal priesthood).  King David divided the priesthood in to 24 groups in 1 Chronicles 24.  There are 24 groups represented by the 24 Elders.  The Elders claim to be redeemed of every tribe, tongue, nation, and people.  Therefore, they could not be angels nor the 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles, all of which would be of the same people, tongue, and nation.  The only option is the redeemed saints that make up the Church age of Chapters 2-3 who are changed and caught up to the Lord in the air per Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

I know it says "at the last trump" in that passage by Paul, but I am not convinced it meant the last trumpet of Revelation.  I am more convinced that it was an allusion to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets).   It is the next feast not the list for Yeshua to fulfill just like the previous ones.    Specific feasts have trumps associated with them. Shavuot (Pentacost) has a reference of the first trump.  Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) has a reference of the last trump, which is an awakening blast on the first day of the feast and the last trump of the feast is when the righteous are sealed prior to the days of awe, the 7 days between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur.  And Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) has a reference of the Great Trump.    The OT is rich with allusions to these feasts and the end times.  And Paul, being probably the most learned Rabbi of his day, trained in the school of Gamliel, one of the most venerated sages of Jewish history, he would have known all of this.  

Revelation was written long after Paul wrote to the Corinthians and Thessalonians. The information was not even known to Yeshua, let alone Paul, regarding trumpets.  God gave the information to Yeshua, who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John.  Paul wasn't even in the loop.

 

Edited by OldCoot
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  458
  • Content Per Day:  0.11
  • Reputation:   329
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  08/25/2012
  • Status:  Offline

My next question is, why do the Rapturist believe the LAST trumpet isnt really the LAST trumpet

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

 MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

 ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,986
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

The last trumpet:

Then the Lord will appear over them,   [in the clouds]
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;    [the seventh trumpet]
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,   [the trump of God]
And will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...