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A place for rapture questions

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On 10/3/2018 at 7:00 AM, WailingWall said:

Hey JoeCanada

Think weve been over this already

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

When Jesus returns to earth His throne is returning with Him

 

 

I would respectfully disagree.  According to the the Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7) in the OT and affirmed by Gabriel (Luke 1:32) when he appeared to Mary and told her she would bear the Messiah, Yeshua will be ruling in the authority of David's throne here on earth, the earthly throne in Jerusalem over the restored nation of Israel and by extension, the entire earth.

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On 9/30/2018 at 9:12 PM, Steve Conley said:

It is also true that the innumerable multitude spoken of in Rev 7:9-17 are the redeemed taken in the rapture, and we are seen standing before the throne of God in Heaven.

 

I would assert that those standing before the throne are those martyred from the 5th seal.  The 24 elders are those that were caught up earlier.  They are on thrones around the throne of God, but do not stand before the throne of God.  Peter says we are a royal priesthood.  The 24 Elders claim to be kings and priests (royal priesthood).  King David divided the priesthood in to 24 groups in 1 Chronicles 24.  There are 24 groups represented by the 24 Elders.  The Elders claim to be redeemed of every tribe, tongue, nation, and people.  Therefore, they could not be angels nor the 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles, all of which would be of the same people, tongue, and nation.  The only option is the redeemed saints that make up the Church age of Chapters 2-3 who are changed and caught up to the Lord in the air per Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

I know it says "at the last trump" in that passage by Paul, but I am not convinced it meant the last trumpet of Revelation.  I am more convinced that it was an allusion to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets).   It is the next feast not the list for Yeshua to fulfill just like the previous ones.    Specific feasts have trumps associated with them. Shavuot (Pentacost) has a reference of the first trump.  Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) has a reference of the last trump, which is an awakening blast on the first day of the feast and the last trump of the feast is when the righteous are sealed prior to the days of awe, the 7 days between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur.  And Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) has a reference of the Great Trump.    The OT is rich with allusions to these feasts and the end times.  And Paul, being probably the most learned Rabbi of his day, trained in the school of Gamliel, one of the most venerated sages of Jewish history, he would have known all of this.  

Revelation was written long after Paul wrote to the Corinthians and Thessalonians. The information was not even known to Yeshua, let alone Paul, regarding trumpets.  God gave the information to Yeshua, who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John.  Paul wasn't even in the loop.

 

Edited by OldCoot

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My next question is, why do the Rapturist believe the LAST trumpet isnt really the LAST trumpet

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

 MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

 ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

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The last trumpet:

Then the Lord will appear over them,   [in the clouds]
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;    [the seventh trumpet]
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,   [the trump of God]
And will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

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On 10/4/2018 at 8:28 PM, OldCoot said:

Revelation was written long after Paul wrote to the Corinthians and Thessalonians. The information was not even known to Yeshua, let alone Paul, regarding trumpets.  God gave the information to Yeshua, who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John.  Paul wasn't even in the loop.

I'm probably going to get a reprimand here but that's going to be OK.

This above quote has to be the most inelegant, shortsighted bit of uninformed pseudo-intellectualism ever to sully debate.

I hope whoever reads the garbage in the above quote above puts it where it belongs, in the incinerator.

This is the opinion of the blind soul, a dearth of insight, lack of truth, the deception of the wolves.

Jesus has always existed. It was Jesus who led Israel in the cloud by day and fire by night. It was Jesus who gave the Commandments. Jesus is the rock from which all Israel drank in the wanderings.

It was Jesus that appeared to Abraham. Jesus, the lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world. 

Jesus is the Messiah as spoken of by the great OT prophets, the same Jesus who gave Paul the revelation on the road to Damascus.

The end was known at the beginning and to say Jesus knew nothing of the end of the age is to ignore truth as evidenced by the Gospels and several Epistles.

Ignore these vain babblings of the worldly.

Continue to insult the deity, immortality, pre-existence, divinity, omnipotence and truth of the Way at great risk to your soul.

 

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On 10/6/2018 at 2:23 AM, WailingWall said:

My next question is, why do the Rapturist believe the LAST trumpet isnt really the LAST trumpet

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

 MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

 ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

Come on you Rapturist, youve got to have some sort of answer to this question or you might as well throw your rapture into the dumpster.

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On 9/28/2018 at 11:34 PM, WailingWall said:

After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven?

 

On 9/29/2018 at 9:01 AM, WailingWall said:

The reason i ask this question is because i can find plenty of scriptures that say when God gathers His people He will bring them to Jerusalem for the kingdom rest but i cant find a one saying we are going to heaven. Not a one.

Your answer is right here:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

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2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

  On 9/29/2018 at 12:34 AM,WailingWall said:

After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven?

How about this: 

*[[1Th 3:13]] KJV* To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD , even our FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

It says we will be presented before God the Father at Jesus's coming. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

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14 hours ago, Da Puppers said:
  On 9/29/2018 at 12:34 AM,WailingWall said:

After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven?

How about this: 

*[[1Th 3:13]] KJV* To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD , even our FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

It says we will be presented before God the Father at Jesus's coming. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Dont see it PUP. Its a manner of speech.

Acts 23:1 (KJV)
1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

You dont think Paul lived in good conscience before God up in heaven do ya? Course not.

 

 

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19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Your answer is right here:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

Not a single word about going to heaven at the so called rapture. Not a one. You do know the new Jerusalem will be here on earth. Right.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
 
Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven. 
 
[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND:

Ya see the resurrection of Zeke 37 and how the Lord gathers them and brings them to Jerusalem {the kingdom}. Its clearly where they are going. No figurin, no speculating. Thats what it says. You will find no scripture saying we are goin to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event

Edited by WailingWall
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