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WailingWall

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On 10/4/2018 at 8:28 PM, OldCoot said:

Revelation was written long after Paul wrote to the Corinthians and Thessalonians. The information was not even known to Yeshua, let alone Paul, regarding trumpets.  God gave the information to Yeshua, who gave it to an angel, who gave it to John.  Paul wasn't even in the loop.

I'm probably going to get a reprimand here but that's going to be OK.

This above quote has to be the most inelegant, shortsighted bit of uninformed pseudo-intellectualism ever to sully debate.

I hope whoever reads the garbage in the above quote above puts it where it belongs, in the incinerator.

This is the opinion of the blind soul, a dearth of insight, lack of truth, the deception of the wolves.

Jesus has always existed. It was Jesus who led Israel in the cloud by day and fire by night. It was Jesus who gave the Commandments. Jesus is the rock from which all Israel drank in the wanderings.

It was Jesus that appeared to Abraham. Jesus, the lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world. 

Jesus is the Messiah as spoken of by the great OT prophets, the same Jesus who gave Paul the revelation on the road to Damascus.

The end was known at the beginning and to say Jesus knew nothing of the end of the age is to ignore truth as evidenced by the Gospels and several Epistles.

Ignore these vain babblings of the worldly.

Continue to insult the deity, immortality, pre-existence, divinity, omnipotence and truth of the Way at great risk to your soul.

 

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On 10/6/2018 at 2:23 AM, WailingWall said:

My next question is, why do the Rapturist believe the LAST trumpet isnt really the LAST trumpet

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

 MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

 ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

Come on you Rapturist, youve got to have some sort of answer to this question or you might as well throw your rapture into the dumpster.

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On 9/28/2018 at 11:34 PM, WailingWall said:

After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven?

 

On 9/29/2018 at 9:01 AM, WailingWall said:

The reason i ask this question is because i can find plenty of scriptures that say when God gathers His people He will bring them to Jerusalem for the kingdom rest but i cant find a one saying we are going to heaven. Not a one.

Your answer is right here:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

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14 hours ago, Da Puppers said:
  On 9/29/2018 at 12:34 AM,WailingWall said:

After we are changed in the twinkling of an eye are there any scriptures that directly say we are headin for heaven?

How about this: 

*[[1Th 3:13]] KJV* To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness BEFORE GOD , even our FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

It says we will be presented before God the Father at Jesus's coming. 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Dont see it PUP. Its a manner of speech.

Acts 23:1 (KJV)
1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

You dont think Paul lived in good conscience before God up in heaven do ya? Course not.

 

 

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19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Your answer is right here:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

Not a single word about going to heaven at the so called rapture. Not a one. You do know the new Jerusalem will be here on earth. Right.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
 
Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven. 
 
[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND:

Ya see the resurrection of Zeke 37 and how the Lord gathers them and brings them to Jerusalem {the kingdom}. Its clearly where they are going. No figurin, no speculating. Thats what it says. You will find no scripture saying we are goin to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event

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On 10/17/2018 at 9:38 AM, WailingWall said:
On 10/16/2018 at 1:51 PM, WilliamL said:

 

Your answer is right here:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Gal. 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

Not a single word about going to heaven at the so called rapture. Not a one. You do know the new Jerusalem will be here on earth. Right.

Context, context, context. The whole context of the passage, which starts in verse 18, is comparing God's descent in the clouds, earthquake, and fire upon earthly Mount Sinai, and the chosen being called up into His Presence, to the Latter Day event of Christ's like appearance accompanied by clouds, earthquake, and fire upon heavenly Mount Zion, and the chosen being called up into the cloud into His Presence. That calling up of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" is what is known as the Rapture.

This is the summation of Paul's teachings about the comparison between the types and shadows of the Old Covenant, and their spiritual fulfillments in the New Covenant. Clearly, these things go far above  your ability to understand them, due to your insistence upon examining everything with your natural mind, not the Mind of the Holy Spirit:

1 Col. 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

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My next question..... What about Job?

1 THES. 4 [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1COR.15  [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Will Job be amoung the dead in Christ who will be “changed” at the 1Cor.15 event?

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together AS A SCROLL: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ......[14] And the heaven departed AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...... [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So scripture proves Job will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord. So why wasnt he invited to the to the pre-trib rapture 
 

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