When do Revelations seals open

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Iam, there is layering because the Rev 12 sign is just that, it's a sign pointing to things to come. The sign is not the action, it's the warning.

STRONGS NT 4592: σημεῖον

σημεῖον, σημείου, τό (σημαίνω (or σῆμα)), from Aeschylus and Herodotus down, Hebrew אות, a sign, mark, token;

1. universally, that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and known: Matthew 26:48; Luke 2:12; 2 Thessalonians 3:17; σημεῖον περιτομῆς (explanatory genitive (cf. Buttmann, § 123, 4)), equivalent to σημεῖον, ὁ ἐστι περιτομή, circumcision which should be a sign of the covenant formed with God, Romans 4:11; τά σημεῖα τοῦ ἀποστόλου, the tokens by which one is proved to be an apostle, 2 Corinthians 12:12; a sign by which anything future is pre-announced, Mark 13:4; Luke 21:7; τό σημεῖον τῆς σής παρουσίας, genitive of the object, Matthew 24:3; τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, the sign which indicates that the Messiah will shortly, or forthwith, come from heaven in visible manifestation, Matthew 24:30; with a genitive of the subjunctive τά σημεῖα τῶν καιρῶν, i. e. the indications of future events which οἱ καιροί furnish, what οἱ καιροί portend, Matthew 16:3 (T brackets WH reject the passage); a sign by which one is warned, an admonition, 1 Corinthians 14:22. used of noteworthy personages, by whom God forcibly admonishes men and indicates to them what he would have them do: thus σημεῖον ἀντιλεγόμενον is said of Jesus Christ, Luke 2:34; Ἰωνᾶς ἐγένετο σημεῖον τοῖς Νινευίταις (Jonah 3:4), Luke 11:30; hence, τό σημεῖον Ἰωνᾶ, Luke 11:29, is equivalent to τό σημεῖον like to that ὅς ἦν Ἰωνᾶς, i. e. to the sign which was given by the mission and preaching of Jonah, to prompt men to seek salvation (Winer's Grammar, 189 (177)); in the same sense, ὁ υἱός τοῦ ἀνθρώπου says that he will be a σημεῖον, to the men of his generation, Luke 11:30; but in Matthew 12:39; Matthew 16:4 τό σημεῖον Ἰωνᾶ is the miraculous experience which befell Jonah himself, cf. Matthew 12:40; that Luke reproduces Christ's words more correctly than Matthew is shown by De Wette and Bleek on Matthew 12:40, by Neander, Leben Jesu, p. 265f edition 1 (English translation, (3rd edition N. Y. 1851) § 165, p. 245f), and others; (but that Luke's report is less full than Matthew's, rather than at variance with it, is shown by Meyer, Weiss, Keil, and others (on Matthew, the passage cited)).

We are talking about chapter 7 and the 4 angels, not chapter 12. 

 a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate.  

This word is only used once in Revelation and that in chapter 1. 

Now tell me again why these verses in chapter 7 show us layering.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

John saw the vision in the heavens Iam, the heavens where the sun, moon, stars and constellations live. God bless.

Sorry, but John saw this vision in heaven.   "a door was opened in heaven"

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Without going into detail. I'm of the opinion a couple of the seals could be opened prior to the official start of the tribulation (Antichrist confirms a covenant with many). I see nothing that the first few seals has to be contained within the seven year tribulation period. I do see that the coming of our Lord is close at hand though.

Try, please, looking at the context of the first seals, which is chapters 4 & 5. Notice in chapter 5 that John saw Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down. Take a guess: what year was that? Then see if you can find 2000 years in any verses before the first seal.

[Heb 13:8]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have said it seems  all silliness to me because God did not give us any verses mentioning the "conception" or "birth" of the church. You coined these ideas yourself. What difference does your distinctions make? If they were important God would have told us.

i said before, the church was conceived in the mind of God before earth was created.

Anyway, you missed the real birth. If the church was "born," it was born in the upper room. 

But He did. God is using the conception, gestation and birth story to describe the church age. If the birth of the church was in Acts 2:1-4, then why did Paul feel abnormally born in 1 Cor 15:8? Why does Paul relate the travail in birth to not being formed yet in Gal 4:19?

The scriptures below are evidence of a gestation period inside the body of Christ...................

Isa 53:11 - Jesus body in travail
Rom 8:22-25 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
1 Cor 15:8 - Paul feels abnormally born without resurrected body
1 Cor 15:50-54/2 Cor 5:1-5 - Mortal/Immortal/Swallowed up
2 Cor 5:1-5 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
Gal 4:19 - Paul relates travail in birth to not being formed yet

[Heb 13:8]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

And WHERE do we find that fleeing in Revelation? It is in 12:6. The midpoint then must be just before that. It is at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 are actually layers of each other, and they're both describing the latter 3.5 years. The war between Michael and Satan in Rev 12:7-9 I believe occurs in the first 3.5 years of the 70th week in heaven, in which the raptured church will witness.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Heb 13:8

[Heb 13:8]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but a prophecy is for the future, not the past. AT this point in John's narrative, he is pasts the midpoint and the rapture will have occurred over 3.5 years earlier. This passage in chapter 14 is about FUTURE events from chapter 14 perspective. You have very little respect for John's chronology - probably because you just don't understand it. 

It's not all chronological Iam, especially when dealing with certain paragraphs and sections in Rev 14. Tell me, where do you think Rev 14:1-5 lands in your time line since it's chronological and all. Also, if all the chapters were chronological then Rev 14:14-16 would put the rapture in the latter 3.5 years which is God's wrath and the church is not appointed to wrath.

[Heb 13:8]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We are talking about chapter 7 and the 4 angels, not chapter 12. 

 a sign (typically miraculous), given especially to confirm, corroborate or authenticate.  

This word is only used once in Revelation and that in chapter 1. 

Now tell me again why these verses in chapter 7 show us layering.

What word is only used once in chapter 1?

Rev 7:1-4 I believe occurs in the latter 3.5 years. The land, sea and trees are harmed during trumpets and bowls.

Rev 7:9-14 great multitude I believe is the rapture, the great multitude in heaven is also in Rev 19:1.

Rev 7:15-17 is about the New Earth, via no more sun and no more tears.

[Heb 13:8]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but John saw this vision in heaven.   "a door was opened in heaven"

Right, and do his visions not have actions. Does Rev 12:1-5 not give us warning of the 70th week?

[Gibbus]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, and do his visions not have actions. Does Rev 12:1-5 not give us warning of the 70th week?

(Fresh Start)

(Here's the Kicker!) Rev. 12:5 Did not Happen, it is a Prophecy ................... Mary, the Mother of Jesus, did not bring forth Jesus, it was the Holy Ghost ...................... however this is another Prophecy......................"The Emmanuel" that Jesus said would come, or it is said, there was a dispute ...................... That "Emmanuel" appears to begin the "Gog and Magog" Prophecy, and he also appears to be the "manchild", the one that didn't come forth to complete the "1260/42" Generations of Matthew, as a picture of the events of revelation. (When God gives us an official answers about the Temple in Jerusalem's Destruction, in disputing the 70 Weeks of Daniel for this "1260/42" additional length of time.

......................

"The Emmanuel", has not come forth, he has not been killed, or resurrected.  None of those events of revelation 12 have happened.  Nothing.  That means following the Jupiter Alignment for Daniel's 70th Week of Years, which is 70 years ...................... god brings these issues to us shortly after that, these events have just not happened, they must be very close by.

......................

Traditionally ..................... this kind of "Dilemma in God acknowledging a Dispute" takes place for about a year ................... that is the general difference between 2300 days for Mary's Pregnancy, and the difference of "1290 and 1335", when Jesus finally arrived in Jerusalem ...................... they just call this difference, an estimated "360 Day Prophetic Year" .......................... in reality "since that figure is Guesstimated"..................... our projection of "450 Days from 9/23/2017 Isaiah 17:6, is no more right or wrong.  Its more or less a period of time within 2 years, that is the most sound answer, as to when everything will be officially resolved ..................... probably this year, just because the book of ezekiel says "Ezekiel 48:35, Jesus returns in 2018 A.D. ................... people have been doing that a while too, "cherry picking dates", but beyond that, I believe everything will be resolved soon.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Gibbus

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, and do his visions not have actions. Does Rev 12:1-5 not give us warning of the 70th week?

No, for Rev. 12: 1-5 was Jesus showing John how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child. Those verses are a parenthesis and have nothing to do with end time timing.  Even if they did, the timing would be off, for that is the middle of the week, and for us, the week has not even started - and won't start until the rapture - which may well be the next event on the horizon. On the other hand, a war might be next.