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When do Revelations seals open


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8 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

What word is only used once in chapter 1?

Rev 7:1-4 I believe occurs in the latter 3.5 years. The land, sea and trees are harmed during trumpets and bowls.

Rev 7:9-14 great multitude I believe is the rapture, the great multitude in heaven is also in Rev 19:1.

Rev 7:15-17 is about the New Earth, via no more sun and no more tears.

Did you not read?  Wow! The four angels are told NOT to harm the earth until after the sealing. What comes after the sealing? The 7th seal opens the 70th week and the HURT begins. Note, BEGINS not finishes. The HURT goes all week long. 

the great multitude in heaven is indeed the rapture, which in John's narrative happened just before chapter 7 a moment before the 6th seal. John did not see it so did not write it - but we can determine the time from 1 Thes.  OF COURSE the moment the church arrives in heaven,  no more tears. The church will spend the entire week in heaven so of course will be there  after the end of the week for the marriage and supper.

Sorry, none of your suggestions even remotely point to layering. They point to a straight chronology.

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9 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

It's not all chronological Iam, especially when dealing with certain paragraphs and sections in Rev 14. Tell me, where do you think Rev 14:1-5 lands in your time line since it's chronological and all. Also, if all the chapters were chronological then Rev 14:14-16 would put the rapture in the latter 3.5 years which is God's wrath and the church is not appointed to wrath.

Chapter 14 timing is midpoint timing, but slightly after. The image and the mark are not created yet, and God warns people not to take the mark. All I can say is, it is some little time after the man of sin entered the temple and the daily sacrifices were stopped - the abomination. 12:6 shows those in Judea beginning to flee - so only a second or two after the midpoint abomination. How long will the war in heaven take? Probably less than a day. Perhaps a week. Chapter 14 then is "shortly after" the midpoint.  I have guessed that the 144,000 will be raptured right at the midpoint. John does not tell us. 

The harvests shown in chapter 14 does not include the rapture, which will be history at that time: it is about the REST of the population of the earth and what is soon to come.  The beheadings, which will probably be in the millions of people.  Then the rapture of the Old Testament saints (I believe at the 7th vial earthquake) then those that die at the battle of Armageddon. Then the sheep and goat judgment. Somewhere in their the parable of the tares. Since the days of GT have not started yet, I say these verses are prophetic: foretelling the near future: that God is about to harvest the earth. 

I suspect after the Kingdom is set up, earth's population will be in the millions (if that many) and not billions.  the harvests of the righteous and the wicked will have removed most of the people. 

I can find no proof of anything but good chronology. 

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9 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14 are actually layers of each other, and they're both describing the latter 3.5 years. The war between Michael and Satan in Rev 12:7-9 I believe occurs in the first 3.5 years of the 70th week in heaven, in which the raptured church will witness.

Please keep in mind, if five events are running parallel to each other, it is impossible to tell them together; therefore John writes of the 42 months of trampling, then the 1260 days of testifying, then the 1260 days of fleeing, then the 3 1/2 years of protection, and finally the 42 months of authority. The first verse of mention is when the counting BEGINS. All these counts will END near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

I have a novel idea: why not just believe it as written? The war will begin at the 7th trumpet. That will be Michael's signal to begin. That is when the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. The 6000 year lease given to Adam has expired and suddenly Satan has no more legal standing as the price of this world.  In short, Satan loses.  So the timing is perfect. The war will begin seconds after the 7th trumpet sounds. There is no verse starting that the church will witness this war! You certainly have a good imagination! 

So no layers, the fleeing will certainly begin BEFORE the supernatural feeding and protection. 

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9 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

But He did. God is using the conception, gestation and birth story to describe the church age. If the birth of the church was in Acts 2:1-4, then why did Paul feel abnormally born in 1 Cor 15:8? Why does Paul relate the travail in birth to not being formed yet in Gal 4:19?

The scriptures below are evidence of a gestation period inside the body of Christ...................

Isa 53:11 - Jesus body in travail
Rom 8:22-25 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
1 Cor 15:8 - Paul feels abnormally born without resurrected body
1 Cor 15:50-54/2 Cor 5:1-5 - Mortal/Immortal/Swallowed up
2 Cor 5:1-5 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
Gal 4:19 - Paul relates travail in birth to not being formed yet

Paul was only stating that he was LATE: he was murdering the saints when He should have joined them. He was to replace Judas as the 12. 

Someone who went to heaven and saw the names on the wall said they saw, Peter, Paul, James and John....in that order - before the angel pulled him through the gate. 

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Paul is speaking ONLY about the Galatians - and was worried that they had given up on Christ and gone back under the law. That is why he said, "birth again."  

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9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, for Rev. 12: 1-5 was Jesus showing John how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child. Those verses are a parenthesis and have nothing to do with end time timing.  Even if they did, the timing would be off, for that is the middle of the week, and for us, the week has not even started - and won't start until the rapture - which may well be the next event on the horizon. On the other hand, a war might be next. 

Then tell me, how do the "seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns" relate to Herod. Did Herod sweep a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth? ?

Rev 12:3-4 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you not read?  Wow! The four angels are told NOT to harm the earth until after the sealing. What comes after the sealing? The 7th seal opens the 70th week and the HURT begins. Note, BEGINS not finishes. The HURT goes all week long. 

The 7th seal does not open the 70th week. There will be peace and safety in the first 3.5 years so Israel can build their third temple. "Sudden destruction" comes at the middle of the 70th week, at the A of D.

Jer 30:6-7 Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? 7How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

Matt 24:15-21 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

1 Thess 5:3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 14 timing is midpoint timing, but slightly after. The image and the mark are not created yet, and God warns people not to take the mark. All I can say is, it is some little time after the man of sin entered the temple and the daily sacrifices were stopped - the abomination. 12:6 shows those in Judea beginning to flee - so only a second or two after the midpoint abomination. How long will the war in heaven take? Probably less than a day. Perhaps a week. Chapter 14 then is "shortly after" the midpoint.  I have guessed that the 144,000 will be raptured right at the midpoint. John does not tell us. 

The harvests shown in chapter 14 does not include the rapture, which will be history at that time: it is about the REST of the population of the earth and what is soon to come.  The beheadings, which will probably be in the millions of people.  Then the rapture of the Old Testament saints (I believe at the 7th vial earthquake) then those that die at the battle of Armageddon. Then the sheep and goat judgment. Somewhere in their the parable of the tares. Since the days of GT have not started yet, I say these verses are prophetic: foretelling the near future: that God is about to harvest the earth. 

I suspect after the Kingdom is set up, earth's population will be in the millions (if that many) and not billions.  the harvests of the righteous and the wicked will have removed most of the people. 

I can find no proof of anything but good chronology. 

Iam, Rev 14:14-16 is the rapture. There are two different sickles in Rev 14:14-20.

The son of man has one sickle and an angel has another sickle. The son of man with His sickle is describing 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 and the angel with the other sickle is describing Matt 24:31, in which He sends His angels out with a loud trumpet call. Verse 14-16 and verse 17-20 are seven years apart. I thought you were pre-trib, this is Christianity 101 bro. ?

The war in heaven will take 3.5 years. Satan and his fallen angels will arrive at the A of D.

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please keep in mind, if five events are running parallel to each other, it is impossible to tell them together; therefore John writes of the 42 months of trampling, then the 1260 days of testifying, then the 1260 days of fleeing, then the 3 1/2 years of protection, and finally the 42 months of authority. The first verse of mention is when the counting BEGINS. All these counts will END near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

I have a novel idea: why not just believe it as written? The war will begin at the 7th trumpet. That will be Michael's signal to begin. That is when the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. The 6000 year lease given to Adam has expired and suddenly Satan has no more legal standing as the price of this world.  In short, Satan loses.  So the timing is perfect. The war will begin seconds after the 7th trumpet sounds. There is no verse starting that the church will witness this war! You certainly have a good imagination! 

So no layers, the fleeing will certainly begin BEFORE the supernatural feeding and protection. 

The 1260 days of testifying occurs at the beginning of the 70th week. The two witnesses are killed at the A of D, not His second coming.

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul was only stating that he was LATE: he was murdering the saints when He should have joined them. He was to replace Judas as the 12. 

Someone who went to heaven and saw the names on the wall said they saw, Peter, Paul, James and John....in that order - before the angel pulled him through the gate. 

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Paul is speaking ONLY about the Galatians - and was worried that they had given up on Christ and gone back under the law. That is why he said, "birth again."  

The Apostle John intentionally made a grammatical error in Revelation 12:5 by modifying masculine huios (son) with neuter arsen.  He is clearly connecting this particular male child with the male child in Isaiah 66, which is a corporate entity.

Allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8. The use of the neuter adjective arsen (male) modifying the masculine noun huios (son) and the image of Israel giving birth points careful readers back to Isaiah 66:7–8, where we read in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament): “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy (arsen). Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her children.” The image is parallel in Revelation, and John explicitly breaks the rules of Greek grammar (modifying the masculine “son” with the neuter “male”) to point us back to this passage in Isaiah 66. The child in both cases is corporate, not individual.

Isa 66:8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Gal 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

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12 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The Apostle John intentionally made a grammatical error in Revelation 12:5 by modifying masculine huios (son) with neuter arsen.  He is clearly connecting this particular male child with the male child in Isaiah 66, which is a corporate entity.

Allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8. The use of the neuter adjective arsen (male) modifying the masculine noun huios (son) and the image of Israel giving birth points careful readers back to Isaiah 66:7–8, where we read in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament): “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy (arsen). Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her children.” The image is parallel in Revelation, and John explicitly breaks the rules of Greek grammar (modifying the masculine “son” with the neuter “male”) to point us back to this passage in Isaiah 66. The child in both cases is corporate, not individual.

Isa 66:8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Gal 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

I notice that some Greek Texts use "ἄρρην" and others "αρσεν."  Are both of these a neuter form? 

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