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When do Revelations seals open


JoeCanada

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14 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The 1260 days of testifying occurs at the beginning of the 70th week. The two witnesses are killed at the A of D, not His second coming.

That is a rumor that cannot be proven by scripture. 

11:1  timing: last half

11:2; timing: last half

11:3: timing: first half

12:6 timing first half ( I am guessing this is what you think)

13:5 timing: last half

Some people imagine that the time given in days is the first half, and time given in months is the last half. 

The problem with this theory is, all through the book, when something is mentioned - it happens right then - at the verse of mentions - unless it is prophecy given by the 24 elders.  

So you are saying that John mentions the two witnesses almost 3.5 years after they showed up!  Sorry, it just does not fit with the rest of the book.

Why does John mention them then: in 12:3?  

Please allow me to enlighten you: verses 1-2 is the man of sin entering Jerusalem: he HAS to arrive in the city if he is to enter the temple in the city. God knows who he is and what he will soon do. So as soon as he arrives, God sends the two witnesses. the arrive very shortly after he - the man of sin - arrives. They will shadow him and teach the TRUTH all during the last half of the week - while he is speaking lies. He cannot kill them until their 1260 days is over. 

Jesus told those people in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. The man of sin has arrived in Jerusalem, probably 3 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is God. He then does this in 11:15 and the 7th trumpet marks that time in heaven. We then see their fleeing in 12:6, so they BEGIN their flight just seconds after the 7th trumpet has marked the time of the abomination.  

Next Michael goes after the devil to take him down. Michael's signal will be the 7th trumpet. 

When the man of sin declares he is God, he has opened himself up for demonic possession. As soon as Satan is cast down, he will possess the man of sin and he will turn into the chapter 13 Antichrist Beast. So John's narrative flows perfectly with the movement of time. One event follows another in perfect sequence. 

You would have to provide scriptural proof it is NOT in perfect sequence- but you will find that extremely difficult.  But not to worry! Prewrathers have no problems moving various parts of Revelation around to fit their theory!

Finally, I can tell you  what Jesus Christ, the head of the church spoke to me: I heard these words:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint." He had previously said I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked. He therefore tells us that EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time would be events of the last half of the week.

Therefore I cannot believe your theory. What you have missed is that John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis. Most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis also. In other words, 11:14 & 15 are just 3.5 days after 11:1. And  12:6 is just a second or two after 11:15. 

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16 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Iam, Rev 14:14-16 is the rapture. There are two different sickles in Rev 14:14-20.

The son of man has one sickle and an angel has another sickle. The son of man with His sickle is describing 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 and the angel with the other sickle is describing Matt 24:31, in which He sends His angels out with a loud trumpet call. Verse 14-16 and verse 17-20 are seven years apart. I thought you were pre-trib, this is Christianity 101 bro. ?

The war in heaven will take 3.5 years. Satan and his fallen angels will arrive at the A of D.

You are too funny! God is going to rapture the church with sickles? Paul never mentioned sickles. 

Look, when a sickle is used to harvest, perhaps a stalk of corn, when the sickly cuts the corn stalk, the stalk dies.  Sorry, but this does not picutre the rapture where dead people come back to life and the alive are changed 

Sorry, but I cannot believe anything you wrote here. 

I AM pretrib. I just don't agree with you on your take of Rev. 14. In fact, I just don't believe much of what you write. Do you ever read commentaries - learning what Believers of the past believed about these scriptures? In some verses I don't believe any of them. But in many verses, they are dead on center. For example the first seal being the church sent out with the Gospel. many commentaries state this. I will read what they have to say about these verses with the sickles.

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16 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The 7th seal does not open the 70th week. There will be peace and safety in the first 3.5 years so Israel can build their third temple. "Sudden destruction" comes at the middle of the 70th week, at the A of D.

Jer 30:6-7 Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale? 7How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

Matt 24:15-21 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

1 Thess 5:3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

You are willing to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. I am not. I think it is the right order as written. "Sudden destruction" comes at the 6th seal, not the abomination. Again, I just can't agree with you. 

Oh, I agree THE DAY will begin with destruction- no doubt about it - but it begins with the 6th seal. 

The 7th seal DOES open the 70th week - you just don't know it yet. And the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. And the 7th vial ends it. 

If you noticed, the fleeing is right after the 7th trumpet - the midpoint - right where Daniel and Jesus tell us they should flee. 

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17 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Then tell me, how do the "seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns" relate to Herod. Did Herod sweep a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth? ?

Rev 12:3-4 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

Please just read the text with understanding! The seven heads  with horns and crowns are SATAN, not King herod. Do you imagine King Herod thought up- and then accomplished the killed of every child in Bethlehem by himself?  No way! He had Satan's help.  Make no mistake, it was the intent of the Dragon to kill baby Jesus, not Herod alone. 

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9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That is a rumor that cannot be proven by scripture. 

11:1  timing: last half

11:2; timing: last half

11:3: timing: first half

12:6 timing first half ( I am guessing this is what you think)

13:5 timing: last half

Some people imagine that the time given in days is the first half, and time given in months is the last half. 

The problem with this theory is, all through the book, when something is mentioned - it happens right then - at the verse of mentions - unless it is prophecy given by the 24 elders.  

So you are saying that John mentions the two witnesses almost 3.5 years after they showed up!  Sorry, it just does not fit with the rest of the book.

Why does John mention them then: in 12:3?  

Please allow me to enlighten you: verses 1-2 is the man of sin entering Jerusalem: he HAS to arrive in the city if he is to enter the temple in the city. God knows who he is and what he will soon do. So as soon as he arrives, God sends the two witnesses. the arrive very shortly after he - the man of sin - arrives. They will shadow him and teach the TRUTH all during the last half of the week - while he is speaking lies. He cannot kill them until their 1260 days is over. 

Jesus told those people in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. The man of sin has arrived in Jerusalem, probably 3 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is God. He then does this in 11:15 and the 7th trumpet marks that time in heaven. We then see their fleeing in 12:6, so they BEGIN their flight just seconds after the 7th trumpet has marked the time of the abomination.  

Next Michael goes after the devil to take him down. Michael's signal will be the 7th trumpet. 

When the man of sin declares he is God, he has opened himself up for demonic possession. As soon as Satan is cast down, he will possess the man of sin and he will turn into the chapter 13 Antichrist Beast. So John's narrative flows perfectly with the movement of time. One event follows another in perfect sequence. 

You would have to provide scriptural proof it is NOT in perfect sequence- but you will find that extremely difficult.  But not to worry! Prewrathers have no problems moving various parts of Revelation around to fit their theory!

Finally, I can tell you  what Jesus Christ, the head of the church spoke to me: I heard these words:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint." He had previously said I could find the exact midpoint clearly marked. He therefore tells us that EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time would be events of the last half of the week.

Therefore I cannot believe your theory. What you have missed is that John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis. Most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis also. In other words, 11:14 & 15 are just 3.5 days after 11:1. And  12:6 is just a second or two after 11:15. 

Why would the two witnesses be ascending to heaven when Jesus and the saints are coming down from heaven? The beast rises before His second coming Iam. Layering Iam layering, non chronological...............

Rev 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

Rev 9:2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.

Rev 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are too funny! God is going to rapture the church with sickles? Paul never mentioned sickles. 

Look, when a sickle is used to harvest, perhaps a stalk of corn, when the sickly cuts the corn stalk, the stalk dies.  Sorry, but this does not picutre the rapture where dead people come back to life and the alive are changed 

Sorry, but I cannot believe anything you wrote here. 

I AM pretrib. I just don't agree with you on your take of Rev. 14. In fact, I just don't believe much of what you write. Do you ever read commentaries - learning what Believers of the past believed about these scriptures? In some verses I don't believe any of them. But in many verses, they are dead on center. For example the first seal being the church sent out with the Gospel. many commentaries state this. I will read what they have to say about these verses with the sickles.

Sickles is a metaphor for God's awesome power of rapturing the church. Seriously??? Revelation is written through symbolism Iam, Christianity 101.

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are willing to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. I am not. I think it is the right order as written. "Sudden destruction" comes at the 6th seal, not the abomination. Again, I just can't agree with you. 

Oh, I agree THE DAY will begin with destruction- no doubt about it - but it begins with the 6th seal. 

The 7th seal DOES open the 70th week - you just don't know it yet. And the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. And the 7th vial ends it. 

If you noticed, the fleeing is right after the 7th trumpet - the midpoint - right where Daniel and Jesus tell us they should flee. 

Jesus coming suddenly as a thief to rapture His church is not the sudden destruction at the A of D. These are two separate events. The antichrist creates false peace in the first 3.5 years. The rapture has occurred and people will be looking for answers through that peace.

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please just read the text with understanding! The seven heads  with horns and crowns are SATAN, not King herod. Do you imagine King Herod thought up- and then accomplished the killed of every child in Bethlehem by himself?  No way! He had Satan's help.  Make no mistake, it was the intent of the Dragon to kill baby Jesus, not Herod alone. 

Do you believe the heads and horns and crowns might have a deeper meaning and purpose? Was the beast system and the mark of the beast in Rev 13 set up in Herod's day, or is it still future. Who are the ten kings, ten kingdoms and seven hills in Herod's day? Take your time Iam, I'm here all day.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings.

Daniel 11:36 Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been decreed must be accomplished.

Rev 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Rev 17:9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

Rev 17:12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

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1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Jesus coming suddenly as a thief to rapture His church is not the sudden destruction at the A of D. These are two separate events. The antichrist creates false peace in the first 3.5 years. The rapture has occurred and people will be looking for answers through that peace.

Sorry, but Paul TELLS US: an instant after the dead in Christ rise, two groups of people get different results:

Those living IN CHRIST will get raptured and taken to heaven.

Those living in darkness get SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. 

WHEN then does the sudden destruction? Maybe 5 seconds after Christ comes and the trumpet sounds.

Is this sudden destruction of Paul written somewhere else? Yes, it will be the great earthquake at the 6th seal. 

John so you know I agree: the Abomination event will be 3.5 years after the 6th seal.

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1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Sickles is a metaphor for God's awesome power of rapturing the church. Seriously??? Revelation is written through symbolism Iam, Christianity 101.

NOT! The rapture will be history by the time those in Judea flee and Satan is kicked out of the heavens.

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