When do Revelations seals open

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Jesus declared He was dead and became alive be4 He showed John the Revelation.

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus declared He was dead and became alive be4 He showed John the Revelation.  True.

But if you study this throne room vision, you must answer the questions:

Why was Jesus NOT IN the throne room? 

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search?

Why was the Holy Spirit still there in chapter 4?

Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never get the first seal right.

[Gibbus]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus declared He was dead and became alive be4 He showed John the Revelation.  True.

But if you study this throne room vision, you must answer the questions:

Why was Jesus NOT IN the throne room? 

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search?

Why was the Holy Spirit still there in chapter 4?

Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never get the first seal right.

(Fresh Start .............. ) (Simplified)

(The Question of God's Action, was never an issue in the Old Testament, the only thing people were concerned with in the Old Testament was the Coming of the Messiah Jesus) (It is only in the New Testament, after Jesus came, were people concerned with God's Action, weather God would do anything more or less then what he had already done ..................... if you Value God's Action in SEALS, then this is mostly all New Testament)

 

1. Peter wanted to Kill and Destroy the "Church of Christ", but he was reminded of the THIRD SEAL,  that God is unwilling to go beyond.

MATTHEW 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

MATTHEW 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

 

2. King of Babylon wanted to go beyond the THIRD SEAL, but God immediately said that Daniel is now your King, and he is commanded to give your authority to the Medes and the Persians (in otherwords, the King of Babylon was just cut down and killed for trying to go beyond the THIRD SEAL)

DANIEL 5:29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and [put] a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.

DANIEL 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

 

3. God in Disputing with Satan, this is the Epic Fail! ... ... ... ... The Ark of the Covenant passed hands from "Canaan" (wilderness with Moses), to the "Philistines (1Samuel6)", finally to "Jerusalem (1kings8)" ... ... ... ... The Ark of the Covenant Never Came to Assyria/Babylon!!!!!!!!!!!! (and it only changed hands three times !!!!!)

REVELATION 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. (God Means to say the Ark of the Covenant!)

REVELATION 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. (God Means to say that he went Silent at the Third SEAL!)

 

(Understand Now? God has only built the First Temple in Jerusalem, and for that reason the Ark of the Covenant, disappeared in or after it was in Jerusalem ............ this was only a picture of God opening THREE SEALS, as the Ark of the Covenant changed hands THREE TIMES ...................... God didn't intend to do anything else, that would mean in part that God intended to open the 4th SEAL or more, but God is very clear on not doing that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

 

(The Question is not, When do the SEALS open, the real question is only did God illustrate the 4th SEAL open previously, if God did not, anything beyond the 3rd SEAL is a snare, its a Heathen/Gentile Snare, just like their Prophecies) (Did Jesus .............)

****

They say that the "Ark of the Covenant" is buried in Oak Island, and when that is found the Seven Churches shall die, God will kill spiritually the "Saints/Prophets/Church" and open the 4th Vial / 4th Seal / 4th Trumpet .................. that is why the keep digging in the Money Pitt at Oak Island, they say the same thing for Jerusalem in Isreal, that the "Temple Mound" has the "Pyramid Corner Stone" from the Great Pyramids burried there, and when the Temple is destroyed in Jerusalem, not only will the Golden Gates be destroyed to herald this event, but also the "Pyramid Corner Stone" that is burried there will rise out of the earth, to signify what God intends to do with the 4th Vial / 4th Seal / 4th Trumpet)

**** Back to Topic

Epic Fail! (Sadly no, Jesus only showed "Peter, James, John" a vision Luke 9:28-31 ................ but Jesus revealed himself as "dead, and then alive" to Thomas, John 20:27 ...................... your legal claim,  that John wrote the Revelation before the Crucifixion, because Jesus already risen off the Cross, because of the "Vision Only", is simply not true.  (Apostle John/John the Baptist/etc.) Was not yet, exiled outside of the Roman Empire, where he could of witnessed the crucifixion ................ there is a conspiracy in the gospel that not only was Jesus not burried and crucified in jerusalem, but because Jesus was going to RISE/RESURRECT, he would of been called "KING" = GOD DID NOT WANT ANY KINGS OVER THAT ASSYRIAN/BABYLON TEMPLE, THAT IS WHY THE ARK OF THE COVENANT NEVER WENT TO ASSYRIA/BABYLON!)

 

(The Answer is that only THREE SEALS WERE ALWAYS OPEN ................ God stopped performing work after the 6th day of creation ...................... it is only in the new testament that God answers Satan with this kind of language, after Jesus when more truth is revealed ................... everyone dies in about 2 1/2 years) (Gentile Prophecies, are built around a "dead church, god kills for the 4th SEAL", and Celestial Signs, and Castalysm Signs, God does not write Daniel's Figures based on Celestial Signs or Castalysm Signs, that means .................. not only is Nostradamus FALSE, but Saint Malachy is FALSE, William Miller is FALSE, and Issac Newton is FALSE, and many, many more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Edited October 2, 2018 by Gibbus

[iamlamad]

14 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Bro., Jesus is in the midst of the Throne :

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,

with seven horns and with oseven eyes, which are pthe seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Holy Spirit is not limited with time and distance like us, the seven eyes REPRESENT the Holy Spirit sent to earth but the Holy Spirit is on earth since Pentecost. You need a confirmation Holy Spirit is from Jesus so the verse of seven eyes confirms it.
 

OF COURSE He is here, but if you back up to chapter 4, you will find a throne room WITHOUT JEsus! And you will find a search for one worthy that ended in failure.

There there is another problem, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, and is not sent down until chapter 5. We have to answer these things! WHY was "no man found?" Why was Jesus not seen immediately when John saw the throne room?

[Heb 13:8]

On 9/30/2018 at 12:52 PM, JoeCanada said:

So although the evidence isn’t 100%, the overwhelming suggestion of all these passages is that the seals begin to open at the inception of the 70th Week. But we can say with relative certainty that none of the seals have opened yet.

Thank you for trying to tackle such a mysterious subject. You are commended Joe. I wrote this to a friend..

"If there's peace and safety (1 Thess 5:3) in the first 3.5 years for Israel then where do the first 6 seals land? The moon turning blood red in the 6th seal vs the moon not giving its light in Matt 24 could be on two different time lines, two different kinds of eclipses. That means the 6th seal would have to come to pass around mid trib. Could the first 5 seals be for the Gentiles and the world and not for Israel?"

[Heb 13:8]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE He is here, but if you back up to chapter 4, you will find a throne room WITHOUT JEsus! And you will find a search for one worthy that ended in failure.

There there is another problem, in chapter 4 the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, and is not sent down until chapter 5. We have to answer these things! WHY was "no man found?" Why was Jesus not seen immediately when John saw the throne room?

iam, please tell me you can make the connection. if not we have a problem...

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

Rev 5:6-8 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Rev 5:12-13 In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Rev 6:1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Heb 13:8

[Gibbus]

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Thank you for trying to tackle such a mysterious subject. You are commended Joe. I wrote this to a friend..

"If there's peace and safety (1 Thess 5:3) in the first 3.5 years for Israel then where do the first 6 seals land? The moon turning blood red in the 6th seal vs the moon not giving its light in Matt 24 could be on two different time lines, two different kinds of eclipses. That means the 6th seal would have to come to pass around mid trib. Could the first 5 seals be for the Gentiles and the world and not for Israel?"

(I think this is the right way to phrase the argument, God doesn't go beyond the 4th SEAL (or you can say God has opened no SEALS, and that would be correct too, because God did nothing since the 6th day of creation and that was before the homosapien) ..................... but the Gentiles and the World, saw God's Glories, something Isreal has not seen, in their sin, in their own minds)

(Rev. 11:2 for Saint Malachy 112 (of the dead church God does not use, burned with the Fires of Hell for Peter the Roman!) ............... "Gog and Magog" isn't measured ................. that is the better answer .............. it has no value with god)

 

Well ............. Hundreds of Years ago..............

It just became common practice to remove one of the Commandments from the set of 10 commandments ....................... I guess that was the mechanism, to make the church identify with the "Gentiles and the World" that has all of their SEALS OPEN!

Parable of the Prodigal Son

Well he takes all his fathers money and runs away to satisfy his lusts in the world, and when he is finished consuming his lusts.  He returns to his father and he is blessed, seven or so more times!  ALL OF HIS SEALS WERE OPENED!

He doesn't know if he was living or dead, he did not know if his father really loved him, or he was an example of disobedience above all people.  All he really knew was that it was times for seconds, and much more pleasures of the world!

(the SEALS we can compare to the natural state of man and this world, the world is not a clean place, it is not an important place, it is a place to pray, and to illustrate god's mercy and redemption, perhaps even help a few come out of the snares of this world .......................... but "gentiles and world", they don't think like this, this creation is everything god intends for us, and if so, everything we should need and desire!)

(Parable of the Prodigal Son ........... God gives his mercy on the good and the evil, and we are to be faithful, with the just and the unjust ................ that means there are divisions without impositions, and divisions with clauses, for the benefit of both parties, (God is not a god of suffering and death, but of righteousness and tribulations) (Suffering and Death, that is where the world rests its authority, not god, it is said? the unfaithful die seven times, for SEVEN SEALS! But the faithful only die one time, after we accept the lord jesus, our former self dies, and we are given the promise of his coming!)

Edited October 3, 2018 by Gibbus

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,

Rev. 4

² And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

³ And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

⁵ And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

⁶ And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

⁷ And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

⁸ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

As I said, NO JESUS at the right hand of God. We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be, yet, He is not here. This is a CLUE. Can you follow clues? Another clue is the search for one worthy that ended in failure. Do you know what these clues mean?

 

 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

iam, please tell me you can make the connection. if not we have a problem...

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Thess 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

Rev 5:6-8 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

Rev 5:12-13 In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Rev 6:1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!”

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

[Last Daze]

42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem here is people pulling the first seal out of its context and imagining they have it right.  Unless people can answer these questions correctly, they will never understand this part of John's visions.

Why was Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

Why was Jesus NOT FOUND in that first search for one worthy?

Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?

 

Go ahead, give it a try: answer these questions.  They are not trick questions. They come right out of the text of chapter 4.

The whole purpose of the throne scene in Revelation 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb.  It uses a "before and after" comparison to do so.  Chapter 4 is the "before" scene.  It takes place before the Lamb overcame the world.  There's really no other possibility since the victorious Lamb wasn't found during the search. 

There are two possibilities as to why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4.  Either He was still the Word before He became flesh and is pictured with the Spirit as seven lamps (thy Word is a lamp unto my feet), or He became flesh and was on earth at the point in time depicted by Chapter 4 but had not yet overcome sin and death in order to establish His worthiness.  I see either as legitimate views.

Again, the whole purpose of Chapters 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to be given dominion over the earth, a dominion that starts to unfold with the opening of the seals.

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  Rev 5:2
• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5
• And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Rev 5:9
• Saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”  Rev 5:12

Establishing the worthiness of the Lamb is the central theme of the throne room scene.  Simply stated: before Jesus overcame sin and death, there was no one found anywhere who was worthy to open the book.  After He overcame, He was found worthy to open the seals.  That is the only chronological takeaway from the throne room scene of Rev 4 and 5.  And as others have stated, the opening of the seals takes place after the time of the Gentile churches.

The throne room scene focuses on the most monumental and significant event in the history of the world, Jesus' death and resurrection.  The 24 elders sang a new song because something had changed.  Jesus overcame sin and death and purchased for God people of every tribe and tongue and people and nation with His blood.  They didn't sing that song in Chapter 4.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The whole purpose of the throne scene in Revelation 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb.  It uses a "before and after" comparison to do so.  Chapter 4 is the "before" scene.  It takes place before the Lamb overcame the world.  There's really no other possibility since the victorious Lamb wasn't found during the search. 

There are two possibilities as to why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4.  Either He was still the Word before He became flesh and is pictured with the Spirit as seven lamps (thy Word is a lamp unto my feet), or He became flesh and was on earth at the point in time depicted by Chapter 4 but had not yet overcome sin and death in order to establish His worthiness.  I see either as legitimate views.

Again, the whole purpose of Chapters 4 and 5 is to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to be given dominion over the earth, a dominion that starts to unfold with the opening of the seals.

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  Rev 5:2
• And one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”  Rev 5:5
• And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.  Rev 5:9
• Saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”  Rev 5:12

Establishing the worthiness of the Lamb is the central theme of the throne room scene.  Simply stated: before Jesus overcame sin and death, there was no one found anywhere who was worthy to open the book.  After He overcame, He was found worthy to open the seals.  That is the only chronological takeaway from the throne room scene of Rev 4 and 5.  And as others have stated, the opening of the seals takes place after the time of the Gentile churches.

The throne room scene focuses on the most monumental and significant event in the history of the world, Jesus' death and resurrection.  The 24 elders sang a new song because something had changed.  Jesus overcame sin and death and purchased for God people of every tribe and tongue and people and nation with His blood.  They didn't sing that song in Chapter 4.

I think you have it: Jesus was not in the throne room in chapter 4 because He was on earth: He had not yet risen from the dead and had not yet ascended.

That also explains why the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent down: Jesus had not yet ascended. 

The reason Jesus was not found worthy in the first search was just as you said, He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer of Mankind. But as soon as He arose from the dead, He WAS found worthy, as seen in chapter 5. Then shortly after that, Jesus ascended back into heaven and into the throne room, and John got to see that moment in the vision. 

Here is the part you missed: there is NO TIME after Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals. There is no 2000 years there: Jesus got the book and began opening the seals in 32 AD or thereabouts.  Seal one is the church sent out with the gospel.

I will add this: you are the first person to answer these questions correctly. I congratulate you on that.

Edited October 3, 2018 by iamlamad