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When do Revelations seals open


JoeCanada

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1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

and most commentaries do not study Greek words, they also come from the 1600's and 1700's. a time in history when they didn't have the technology like Stellarium to track Rev 12:1-5 in the heavens. ?

Agreed" MOST of the commentaries seem to think Revelation is mostly about Rome. 

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4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If they don't speak of a specific time of war then they are pretty much meaningless.  War, famine, and pestilence existed long before the time of Christ.  There's nothing to indicate that those seals impede the gospel in any way, or that that's their purpose.  A paper shortage would make more sense than a food shortage if the objective was to slow down the gospel, and have you ever heard the expression that there are no atheists in a foxhole?  Being keenly aware of our mortality would seem to have the opposite effect of slowing the gospel.

War, famine, pestilence, and martyrdom are signs given to indicate the nearness of His coming, that He is right at the door.  The seals correspond to those signs and won't be opened until the spreading of the gospel, the times of the Gentiles, is fulfilled.

  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

The gospel of the kingdom being preached to the Gentiles corresponds to the "these things" of the seven letters to the seven Gentile churches.  The seals are opened after those things.  The gospel is preached around the world and then the seals are opened which reveal the sign of His coming.

Yes, the gospel will be preached in all the world, but if there is no food - a famine - where do the missionaries go? They go home. If there is a war, where do the missionaries go? They go home. If there is a plague, where to the minsters go? Most of them go AWAY.  John G Lake is the only exception I know of. 

What slowed down or almost stopped the gospel in Russia? It was the murder of most of the preachers, and the fear of murder of the followers. 

Case in Point: China: wikipedia:  Under Communist ideology, religion was discouraged by the state and Christian missionaries left the country in what was described by Phyllis Thompson of the China Inland Mission as a "reluctant exodus", leaving the indigenous churches to do their own administration, support, and propagation of the faith.

How did the church do after Mao Zedong took over? After many Christians were murdered, then many of the protestant groups went under the "Three SElf" church, and from that time on got a watered down or approved gospel. The Catholics on the other hand said NO WAY! They started the  Chinese Patriotic Catholic Church  that would operate outside of the Vatican. BRAVO for them!  For the most part, few people in China have been murdered for being a Christian - but certainly some have. MANY have spent years in prisons. My point is, murder slows down the advance of the gospel, but just resistance or persecution does not slow down the gospel. 

Yes, wars have always been. But part of the "deal" on the seals protecting the "book" was that Satan could or would attempt to stop the advance of the Gospel within the 1/4 of the earth, and would be allowed to use war, famine and pestilence. And we can see he has done that over and over - and it will probably continue.  These seals were opened just as John portrays, as soon as Jesus ascended.  Without any doubt the next world war will be started in Europe, the Middle East, or Africa - this 1/4 of the earth. 

Don't read into the text what is not there: "after these things" only means God quit dictating letters to existing churches in 95 AD and chose to begin showing John visions.  

We are just not going to agree: when I read chapter 5, I see the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I don't know what you see. 

Edited by iamlamad
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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We are just not going to agree:

I agree.

Things are going to happen as God wills whether we have it figured out correctly or not.  We can not affect how things will come to pass.  We only have control over our response to whatever comes our way.  Remember, if you personally didn't see Jesus return, He didn't.  

  • What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’  Mark 13:37
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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I agree.

Things are going to happen as God wills whether we have it figured out correctly or not.  We can not affect how things will come to pass.  We only have control over our response to whatever comes our way.  Remember, if you personally didn't see Jesus return, He didn't.  

  • What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’  Mark 13:37

So we DO agree on one thing! Hallelujah! Your statement is true ONLY of those on the earth at the time.

Remember, the church will be coming WITH Him for that coming where every eye will see Him.

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4 hours ago, PepperS said:

Revelation to John was written as a source of hope for Israel during a time of intense persecution. It is a metaphor describing the Kingdom of God. The revalation was to give courage that Christ and believers will ultimately triumph. 

It is a strange thing: that a metaphor will have real events like 7 trumpet judgments and 7 bowl judgments!

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2 hours ago, PepperS said:

What do you think happens with the trumpets and bowls that hasn't happened all through history, and will continue to happen over and over?

The bible does not say they happen over and over! They happen ONCE. Image if 1/3 of the people are killed over and over! (the 6th trumpet). The population would decrease very rapidly!

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

He was not "obtained by robbery!" Neither will God be robbing when He raptures the church. 

Matt 24:42-44 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Quote

The context of the chapter is the Dragon, mentioned 32 times in this chapter.  The theme of the chapter is the dragon, and by the time-line of John's narrative, what the dragon would be doing during the second half of the week (since chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter.)  It is not about the church. It is only secondarily about the SON born or the virgin, and this was mentioned ONLY in line with the Dragon. The dragon tried to kill the Son using Herod.  The dragon succeeded later on when Jesus was still a young man. 

No, the dragon represents the constellation draco, planet x and the antichrist system which represents kingdoms and nations on earth. The dragon actually has celestial and also earthly meaning.

seven heads - Rev 12, 13, 17
ten horns - Dan 7, Rev 12, 13, 17
seven crowns - Rev 12

Quote

Virgo by its very name is speaking of a virgin. From this virgin comes a SON, which is the Christmas story.  Virgo or the virgin did NOT produce the church: the SON produced the church. 

But is there a greater or bigger meaning John has for "the woman?  Yes, the Virgin came from ISRAEL.  

" the woman fled into the wilderness"

Who then is this "woman? What is her relationship with the virgin?  Straight from the words of Jesus, the "woman" are those who live in Judea that know the words of Jesus about fleeing and upon seeing the abomination begin their flight. JEWs and HEBREWS live in Judea, not the church. 

The timeline is the midpoint of the 70th week and the WEEK is all about Israel - as Daniel said, HIS PEOPLE. This is confirmed about "the woman" or those in Judea who flee. 

Therefore I disagree. Even the context disagrees with your theory. 

Iam, the church was conceived through Israel on Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4, and how did the Son who was also a Jew conceive the church? By dying on the cross and rising on the third day. The seed of the Holy Spirit couldn't have been planted in Acts 2:1-4 without the death, burial and resurrection. Technically the Son is a virgin and died a virgin and was without blemish or sin. The Holy Spirit conceived the Son, not man, Matt 1:18 God bless.

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11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed" MOST of the commentaries seem to think Revelation is mostly about Rome. 

Ok, then you agree that Stellarium tracked Rev 12:1-5 in the heavens on 9/23/17?

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5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Ok, then you agree that Stellarium tracked Rev 12:1-5 in the heavens on 9/23/17?

I have my own stellarium.  I know what Virgo looked like in 2 BC when Christ was born. 

The truth is, Rev, 12:1  does not mention any planets: ONLY Virgo, clothed in the sun, moon at her feet, and a crown of 12 stars. 

You should know, if you don't, that the 12 stars are stars, not planets, and all have names and they are always seen with Virgo. 

The 12 stars:  They are: (1) Pi, (2) Nu, (3) Beta, (4) Sigma, (5) Chi, (6) Iota - these six stars form the southern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. Then there are (7) Theta, (8) Star 60, (9) Delta, (10) Star 93, (11) Beta, (12) Omicron - these last six form the northern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. None of these are a part of Leo, as far as I know. They make an almost perfect circle near Virgo's head.

Now, with that being said, what was seen on that date you mentioned was extremely unusual with three planets all in a row plus Regulus in that row, plus Jupiter in the center of Virgo. 

We can find Virgo "clothed with the Sun" and the moon at her feet almost every September. However, some years, when the sun is at her shoulder, the moon is not quite at her feet. We also note that every 11 or 12 years. But the other planets? That part is more unusual! 

However, nothing happened on that date and todate nothing has happened that Virgo might have been a sign for - except  that we are close to the end.  Please keep in mind, this "sign" should be at the midpoint of the week, but the entire week is still in our future - so for your theory to work, that date in 2017 should have been in the middle of the 70th week.  NOW we have a problem! 

Before the week can begin, Jesus must come, the rapture take place, then the 6th seal be opened, and finally the 7th seal to start the week. It seems that sign in the sky was a few years off!

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5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Matt 24:42-44 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

1 Thess 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

No, the dragon represents the constellation draco, planet x and the antichrist system which represents kingdoms and nations on earth. The dragon actually has celestial and also earthly meaning.

seven heads - Rev 12, 13, 17
ten horns - Dan 7, Rev 12, 13, 17
seven crowns - Rev 12

Iam, the church was conceived through Israel on Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4, and how did the Son who was also a Jew conceive the church? By dying on the cross and rising on the third day. The seed of the Holy Spirit couldn't have been planted in Acts 2:1-4 without the death, burial and resurrection. Technically the Son is a virgin and died a virgin and was without blemish or sin. The Holy Spirit conceived the Son, not man, Matt 1:18 God bless.

It does not compute! It was the WOMAN that conceived the child Jesus. A SON cannot conceived a man child. You are REALLY stretching!

Why not just take Jesus word for it: it was Him - Jesus - who CHOSE to show John what the Dragon did, when Jesus was a child. After all, this chapter is about the Dragon, not about the church! So you entire context is wrong. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including the pronouns. 

The "dragon" is just another word for Satan, the devil. It was SATAN who put it in the mind of King Herod to murder all the children under two years old. It will be Satan behind the Beast and False Prophet to create an image and force people to worship it.

Edited by iamlamad
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