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JoeCanada

When do Revelations seals open

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11 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, Rev 12:1-5 is referring to corporate entities, Israel, the body of Christ and the Antichrist system. The word harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5 is referring to the rapture of the church. Lack of knowledge is the drug of death.

Ok, so there's three stages to the body of Christ when discussing end times events. The scriptures below are just a collection of what I've gathered.

More than likely, there is probably more scriptures that coincide with the three stages and the travail of the body through cross reference. These passages are just the basics for now, but as long as we have the format or the outline it can make algebra look like addition.

1. Corporate conception of the church - Acts 2:1-4/Matt 1:20 (Example of Holy Spirit conception)
2. Individual conception in the believer - John 3:16, Rom 10:9, Eph 1:13-14 (Seed Gal 3:19, Gal 3:29, 1Pe 1:23, 1Jo 3:9)
3. Corporate birth of the church - 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Rev 12:5

After the conception of the church at Pentecost, whenever someone comes to faith in Christ that person gets placed into the body of Christ. For 2,000 years, His body has been in gestation growing ever so larger until the body gets to what is called a full term pregnancy. Full term is anywhere between 37 to 42 weeks, via Jupiter in the body of Virgo for 42 weeks completing the Rev 12:1-5 great sign in its awesome perfection and form.

God is using the human conception/gestation/birth story to describe His story of the divinity of the church age. Just as a child's head comes out first prior to the body, so it is with Jesus (the head of the church) ascending to heaven first prior to the body, Col 1:18...

Isa 53:11 - Jesus body in travail
Rom 8:22-25 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
1 Cor 15:8 - Paul feels abnormally born without resurrected body
1 Cor 15:50-54/2 Cor 5:1-5 - Mortal/Immortal/Swallowed up
2 Cor 5:1-5 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
Gal 4:19 - Paul relates travail in birth to not being formed yet

Hopefully, I've made this as easy as possible to discern. This is probably one of the most complex topics in relation to end times, but once it clicks in your mind and you see the bigger picture you will see it like a blind man opening his eyes for the first time.

Sometimes tradition isn't always right, Jhn 20:29. God bless.

All I can tell you is that Jesus Christ, the head of the church spoke words to me about this chapter and in particular about the first 5 verses. His words: "I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was a child. Those first 5 verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

These verses make very good sense in agreement with His words. 

 Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:  Antitypically the true Israel, Jesus, when born, was sought for destruction by Herod, who slew all the males in and around Bethlehem.

Alford Commentary:  before the woman which is about to bear, that when she has borne he may devour her child (this was what the devil instigated Herod the Great to do, who was the dependant of the Roman Empire. But doubtless the reference is wider than this: even to the whole course of hostility against the Lord during His humiliation:

Cambridge Bible notes:  for to devour her child] Symbolises the enmity of the serpent against the seed of the woman, beginning with the intended treachery of Herod, and massacre of the Innocents; but including also the malice that pursued Him through life, the temptation, and at last the Cross.

The commentaries are certainly against me on this one. Some mention Herod, but only in passing as a tiny part of what this passage is about. Most of them imagine this passage is about the church. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but harpazo does not have to mean a rescue. It can mean being raised up by an outside power, such as the Holy Spirit which is exactly what happened with Jesus.  Your personal definitions get you into trouble. 

harpazo is a snatching away with quick force, to obtain by robbery. this is not how Jesus ascended.

Edited by Heb 13:8

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The commentaries are certainly against me on this one. Some mention Herod, but only in passing as a tiny part of what this passage is about. Most of them imagine this passage is about the church. 

and most commentaries do not study Greek words, they also come from the 1600's and 1700's. a time in history when they didn't have the technology like Stellarium to track Rev 12:1-5 in the heavens. 🙄

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29 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

harpazo is a snatching away with quick force, to obtain by robbery. this is not how Jesus ascended.

No, this is simply not true. Yes, that is ONE definition, but not the ONLY definition.  In Rev. 12 the meaning is to "catch away."

Paul was caught up to the third heaven. He was not "obtained by robbery!" Neither will God be robbing when He raptures the church. 

The Lord caught away Phillip and He was not robbing anyone!  

The word has other less violent meanings, such as to pull out, or catch away. 

Follow the context:

The context of the chapter is the Dragon, mentioned 32 times in this chapter.  The theme of the chapter is the dragon, and by the time-line of John's narrative, what the dragon would be doing during the second half of the week (since chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter.)  It is not about the church. It is only secondarily about the SON born or the virgin, and this was mentioned ONLY in line with the Dragon. The dragon tried to kill the Son using Herod.  The dragon succeeded later on when Jesus was still a young man. 

Virgo by its very name is speaking of a virgin. From this virgin comes a SON, which is the Christmas story.  Virgo or the virgin did NOT produce the church: the SON produced the church. 

But is there a greater or bigger meaning John has for "the woman?  Yes, the Virgin came from ISRAEL.  

" the woman fled into the wilderness"

Who then is this "woman? What is her relationship with the virgin?  Straight from the words of Jesus, the "woman" are those who live in Judea that know the words of Jesus about fleeing and upon seeing the abomination begin their flight. JEWs and HEBREWS live in Judea, not the church. 

The timeline is the midpoint of the 70th week and the WEEK is all about Israel - as Daniel said, HIS PEOPLE. This is confirmed about "the woman" or those in Judea who flee. 

Therefore I disagree. Even the context disagrees with your theory. 

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1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

and most commentaries do not study Greek words, they also come from the 1600's and 1700's. a time in history when they didn't have the technology like Stellarium to track Rev 12:1-5 in the heavens. 🙄

Agreed" MOST of the commentaries seem to think Revelation is mostly about Rome. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If they don't speak of a specific time of war then they are pretty much meaningless.  War, famine, and pestilence existed long before the time of Christ.  There's nothing to indicate that those seals impede the gospel in any way, or that that's their purpose.  A paper shortage would make more sense than a food shortage if the objective was to slow down the gospel, and have you ever heard the expression that there are no atheists in a foxhole?  Being keenly aware of our mortality would seem to have the opposite effect of slowing the gospel.

War, famine, pestilence, and martyrdom are signs given to indicate the nearness of His coming, that He is right at the door.  The seals correspond to those signs and won't be opened until the spreading of the gospel, the times of the Gentiles, is fulfilled.

  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

The gospel of the kingdom being preached to the Gentiles corresponds to the "these things" of the seven letters to the seven Gentile churches.  The seals are opened after those things.  The gospel is preached around the world and then the seals are opened which reveal the sign of His coming.

Yes, the gospel will be preached in all the world, but if there is no food - a famine - where do the missionaries go? They go home. If there is a war, where do the missionaries go? They go home. If there is a plague, where to the minsters go? Most of them go AWAY.  John G Lake is the only exception I know of. 

What slowed down or almost stopped the gospel in Russia? It was the murder of most of the preachers, and the fear of murder of the followers. 

Case in Point: China: wikipedia:  Under Communist ideology, religion was discouraged by the state and Christian missionaries left the country in what was described by Phyllis Thompson of the China Inland Mission as a "reluctant exodus", leaving the indigenous churches to do their own administration, support, and propagation of the faith.

How did the church do after Mao Zedong took over? After many Christians were murdered, then many of the protestant groups went under the "Three SElf" church, and from that time on got a watered down or approved gospel. The Catholics on the other hand said NO WAY! They started the  Chinese Patriotic Catholic Church  that would operate outside of the Vatican. BRAVO for them!  For the most part, few people in China have been murdered for being a Christian - but certainly some have. MANY have spent years in prisons. My point is, murder slows down the advance of the gospel, but just resistance or persecution does not slow down the gospel. 

Yes, wars have always been. But part of the "deal" on the seals protecting the "book" was that Satan could or would attempt to stop the advance of the Gospel within the 1/4 of the earth, and would be allowed to use war, famine and pestilence. And we can see he has done that over and over - and it will probably continue.  These seals were opened just as John portrays, as soon as Jesus ascended.  Without any doubt the next world war will be started in Europe, the Middle East, or Africa - this 1/4 of the earth. 

Don't read into the text what is not there: "after these things" only means God quit dictating letters to existing churches in 95 AD and chose to begin showing John visions.  

We are just not going to agree: when I read chapter 5, I see the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. I don't know what you see. 

Edited by iamlamad

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Revelation to John was written as a source of hope for Israel during a time of intense persecution. It is a metaphor describing the Kingdom of God. The revalation was to give courage that Christ and believers will ultimately triumph. 

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

We are just not going to agree:

I agree.

Things are going to happen as God wills whether we have it figured out correctly or not.  We can not affect how things will come to pass.  We only have control over our response to whatever comes our way.  Remember, if you personally didn't see Jesus return, He didn't.  

  • What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’  Mark 13:37

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

I agree.

Things are going to happen as God wills whether we have it figured out correctly or not.  We can not affect how things will come to pass.  We only have control over our response to whatever comes our way.  Remember, if you personally didn't see Jesus return, He didn't.  

  • What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’  Mark 13:37

So we DO agree on one thing! Hallelujah! Your statement is true ONLY of those on the earth at the time.

Remember, the church will be coming WITH Him for that coming where every eye will see Him.

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4 hours ago, PepperS said:

Revelation to John was written as a source of hope for Israel during a time of intense persecution. It is a metaphor describing the Kingdom of God. The revalation was to give courage that Christ and believers will ultimately triumph. 

It is a strange thing: that a metaphor will have real events like 7 trumpet judgments and 7 bowl judgments!

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