Is Predestination Biblical?

[warrior12]

5 hours ago, warrior12 said:

This topic has been discussed here many times over.  It can still be further.  If you wish to do so, create a thread and title it as such or you would just derail this one easily.  Let's stay on the topic the OP has outlined.

Something has gone amiss here. I thought this reply I made above was on another thread , hence my post above. Anyway, whatever the situation, hope I did not offend anyone, especially Robert Williams.  

Yeh, looking back at the post, I seriously thought I was posting on another topic. My bad as I hear some of the younger folks using to denote a mess up. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by warrior12

[jeremiah1five]

Predestination is Biblical.

All God is doing in TIME is preparing BODIES to go with those names in the book of life of the lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation [CREATION] of the world

Rev. 13:8.

Christ was pre-destined.

And so are we. When God blew into the nostrils of Adam God blew the ELECT into the loins of Adam.

And here we are.

God is Sovereign. God cannot re-duplicate Himself in Himself so He considered US - THE ELECT - in His Mind Before He created anything.

There is only ONE God.

There is NONE like Him, and He gives/shares/transfers/copies His Glory TO NO ONE.

 

[n2thelight]

9 hours ago, Robert William said:

The teaching about "free will" is Satanic.

The natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, why would the natural man born in sin embrace the gospel if he/she considers it to be foolishness, I can identify with that when I was a heathen suppressing the truth.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree with predestination ,however your take on free will being satanic is false.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by n2thelight

[Christine]

12 hours ago, Robert William said:

https://carm.org/is-predestination-a-biblical-teaching

Is predestination a biblical teaching?

 

by Matt Slick
7/29/2009

Yes, predestination is biblical.  Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass.  We find this in Ephesians 1:11 which says, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”  Notice Paul teaches that predestination occurs according to the purpose of God and that God works all things after His will.  The "all things" means exactly that, all things.

• Predestination:  "God’s actions in willing something to a specific result; also called “foreordination.” Some Christian theologians, particularly in the Reformed tradition, have seen it as indicating God’s eternal decree by which all creatures are foreordained to eternal life or death. It may also be used synonymously with “election” and indicates God’s gracious initiation of salvation for those who believe in Jesus Christ."1
• "The divine determination of human beings to eternal salvation or eternal damnation. The doctrine of predestination is a branch, so to speak, of the doctrine of election; God’s predestinating activity is a function of his existence as the electing God. Though expressed in the Old Testament primarily as the corporate election of the people of Israel (cf. Deut. 7:6–8), some also extend predestination to include God’s having decided in advance the events of each day in an individual’s life (e.g., Ps. 139:13–16)."2

The word predestination comes from the Greek προορίζω, "prooridzo."  The word occurs six times in six verses in the New Testament.

1. Acts 4:28, “to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.”
2. Romans 8:29-30, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
3. 1 Corinthians 2:7, “but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”
4. Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
5. Ephesians 1:11, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”

By looking at these verses, we can see that predestination reveals God's great sovereignty and right to do with His creation as he desires.  But also we can see that predestination deals with salvation.  Unfortunately, many Christians do not accept the biblical teaching on predestination.  Many do not like the idea that God predestines people for salvation, but the fact is the Bible teaches it.

We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination.  One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him, and those are the ones He predestined to salvation.  The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.

Either way, predestination is found in the Bible, and it is a doctrine that we must accept.  So, to find which view you think is most biblical, study the above list of verses in their context and see if you think that God predestines according to the expected future human choices or not.

Hello @Robert William,

I started to read your opening post, but, with respect, got no further than the first line, which said,

'Yes, predestination is biblical.  Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass.'

* This is surely not right: for example, did God determine that the offspring of Noah would 'abide' in the valley of Shinar and build themselves a city and a tower, in order to make themselves a name, against His known will? I think not. This is just one act of disobedience which comes to mind, beside that one catastrophic  act of disobedience in the garden of Eden, which brought in sin and death upon mankind.

* God has foreknowledge, He knows what man will do, and therefore predestinates accordingly.

* I have no time to read further at this moment, but felt it necessary to respond to that opening line. 

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified 
Saviour, Lord, and Head.
Chris
 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Christine

[n2thelight]

In order to understand predestination,even the scriptures for that matter,one must understand the 3 Heaven and earth ages,another topic ,another time .So let's stay with predestination

 

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

https://www.theseason.org/ephesians/ephesians1.htm

[Robert William]

11 hours ago, n2thelight said:

In order to understand predestination,even the scriptures for that matter,one must understand the 3 Heaven and earth ages,another topic ,another time .So let's stay with predestination

 

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

https://www.theseason.org/ephesians/ephesians1.htm

Sounds like fiction to me, not scriptural.

n2thelight, what Denomination are you part of?

Edited October 4, 2018 by Robert William

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, Robert William said:

Sounds like fiction to me, not scriptural.

It's all false teaching.   Pay him no mind.

[Robert William]

11 hours ago, Christine said:

Hello @Robert William,

I started to read your opening post, but, with respect, got no further than the first line, which said,

'Yes, predestination is biblical.  Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass.'

* This is surely not right: for example, did God determine that the offspring of Noah would 'abide' in the valley of Shinar and build themselves a city and a tower, in order to make themselves a name, against His known will? I think not. This is just one act of disobedience which comes to mind, beside that one catastrophic  act of disobedience in the garden of Eden, which brought in sin and death upon mankind.

* God has foreknowledge, He knows what man will do, and therefore predestinates accordingly.

* I have no time to read further at this moment, but felt it necessary to respond to that opening line. 

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified 
Saviour, Lord, and Head.
Chris
 

Hello Christine, I strongly suggest that you please read the rest of the article, a person is NOT predestined based on a free will choice, free will is a man mad Satanic myth.

[Robert William]

18 hours ago, George said:

I went ahead and split this topic out of the original topic since it was a diversion of the topic. 

@Robert William While Predestination is a Biblical doctrine -- so is the doctrine of Free Will.  If it wasn't why would God say things such as --

Joshua 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deu 30:15  “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Deu 30:16  If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
Deu 30:17  But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
Deu 30:18  I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deu 30:20  loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

@Robert William Most people on the forums are Bible-Believing believers and believe in the Statement of Faith, so there is no need to attack someone who may disagree with you on a particular doctrine.  Remember what Paul said when talking to someone,

2Ti 2:24  And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25  correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

As a servant of the Lord, we do well if we correct in a way that the Spirit of God has the opportunity to enlighten their spirit to the truth.  However, if you speak in a means that is purposely offensive, then very often the opposite takes place.

Proverbs 18:19  A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.

Remember while Jesus appeared to be harsh, it also says Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God bless,

George

Hello George, the gospel call goes out to all, but ONLY the Predestined elect will embrace it, the rest will consider it to be foolishness.

1Co 2:14　 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.　

[Robert William]

20 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Seriously Robert, while I do not hold the views about free will that many do, I would never refer to comments about peripheral theology as Satanic. That is way over the top! Think that in your mind if that it your conviction, but please refrain from telling brothers and sisters in Christ, that they have adopted doctrines of demons on topics that do not establish nor prevent one from having a relationship with their Lord and Savior.

If you believe that a notion is unscriptural, fine, say so and produce your evidence for others to evaluate and to pray over, and hear and pray over what they say as well. Don't automatically assume, that you have some special insight or access to the Holy Spirit, not enjoyed by others as well.

Without differences of opinion in the body of Christ, it is possible that the truth will not be presented, and therefore, debate and differences, are an insurance policy, that the truth will get an airing!

Just because someone ignorantly hold to the Satanic teaching of free will does not mean they are not eternally saved. My understanding of that subject comes from thirty years of prayer and study of the Canon of 66 books.

Omegaman, quoting from the Old about that subject is not convincing since we are now in a New Covenant and the Old is obsolete.

Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant

Heb 8:1　 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,　

Heb 8:2　 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.　

Heb 8:3　 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.　

Heb 8:4　 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.　

Heb 8:5　 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."　

Heb 8:6　 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.　

Heb 8:7　 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.　

Heb 8:8　 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,　

Heb 8:9　 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.　

Heb 8:10　 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.　

Heb 8:11　 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.　

Heb 8:12　 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."　

Heb 8:13　 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.