Eliptic01 Posted October 4, 2018 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted October 4, 2018 I Kings 22:21, 22, 23: …21Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. 22And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’ 23So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you.”… Using this scripture as his key to the argument, the noted Christian author Gordon H. Clark states the following in his well published book God and Evil: "But, while God is the ultimate cause of sin, He is not the author of sin" Fellow Christians: "Do your best" in commenting ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliptic01 Posted October 4, 2018 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 4, 2018 Additional scriptural references: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, Judges 9:23 God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem and caused them to treat Abimelech deceitfully, 1 Samuel 16:14 After the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, a spirit of distress from the LORD began to torment him. 1 Samuel 18:10 The next day a spirit of distress sent from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied inside the house while David played the harp as usual. Now Saul was holding a spear, 1 Samuel 19:9 But as Saul was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, a spirit of distress from the LORD came upon him. While David was playing the harp, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted October 25, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,571 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,439 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted October 25, 2018 On 10/4/2018 at 2:16 PM, Eliptic01 said: I Kings 22:21, 22, 23: …21Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. 22And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’ 23So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you.”… Using this scripture as his key to the argument, the noted Christian author Gordon H. Clark states the following in his well published book God and Evil: "But, while God is the ultimate cause of sin, He is not the author of sin" Fellow Christians: "Do your best" in commenting ? Shalom, Eliptic01. The problem is thinking that "sin" is something done. The solution is simple when one looks at how Yeshua` (Jesus) summarized the commandments into two: Matthew 22:35-40 (KJV) 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Thus, sin is not a thing that is done; it's a thing left UNDONE! It's the "HOLE" in the "doughnut!" If all God's commandments in His Law are summarized as LOVE, either for God Himself or for one's neighbor, then "sin" is the ABSENCE of love! It's love left UNDONE! Furthermore, sin lies in the heart of a person, not in the deeds that person does. The deeds are the expression of what is already in the heart! Luke 6:45 (KJV) 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Therefore, God is NOT the "ultimate cause of sin." God is LOVE! 1 John 4:7-14 (KJV) 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. The "ultimate cause of sin" is the SELFISHNESS and SELF-CENTEREDNESS that is inherent within each person! That inherent narcissism with which we are all born means it is "naturally" (now after the Fall) our instinct for self-preservation over the needs of others. This is what we must be able to overcome to "love one another." Because God is invisible to us and for many is nothing more than an abstract concept, it is also what we must overcome to "love the Lord our God with all our hearts, and with all our souls, and with all our minds." The only way God could be "responsible" for sin is in the fact that He created mankind in the first place! However, God didn't create sin; He created human beings with free choice. He created human beings with the capacity to love! He also created human beings with the ability to choose NOT to love! HaSatan, the serpent, didn't "MAKE" Chavah ("Eve") sin; he woke the self-centeredness within the woman and SHE chose to disobey! Then, not to be alone in her choice, she gave some of the fruit to her husband, and HE chose to eat, also! Then, self-preservation kicked in when confronted, and they began the "blame-game!" Adam said, "The woman whom THOU gavest to be with me, SHE gave me of the tree, and I did eat!" He blamed Chavah AND He blamed GOD! She followed suit and blamed the serpent: "THE SERPENT beguiled (tricked) me, and I did eat." However, the choice was their own. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figure of eighty Posted October 27, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 243 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 1,557 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 872 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2018 I don't know but Ive always wondered about that verse. Like I wonder why he would send a spirit to distress Saul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 On 10/4/2018 at 1:16 PM, Eliptic01 said: I Kings 22:21, 22, 23: …21Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. 22And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’ 23So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you.”… Fellow Christians: "Do your best" in commenting ? It was a parable not an actual event. God is neither the cause or author of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliptic01 Posted October 27, 2018 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2018 36 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: It was a parable not an actual event. Do you also see the book of Job as a parable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 20 minutes ago, Eliptic01 said: Do you also see the book of Job as a parable? No, but God is not the cause or author of sin in that book either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliptic01 Posted October 27, 2018 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 4 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/20/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: It was a parable not an actual event You did not state a reference source to support your statement that this was a parable. Do you have a specific reference or is that the general approach that your personal theology takes towards the biblical/historical account of the Kings of Israel? Assuming it was a parabolic account, being that it is inspired scripture, that would not exclude it from nevertheless having a truism or truth in it, that is God having to grant the lying spirit to do so even as much as Satan needed God's permission in Job to bring evil on him: Job 1:12 "The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” If on the other hand, you reject the Bible as being the inerrant word of God, then your reply is your personal opinion only, completely lacking any other authority. Edited October 27, 2018 by Eliptic01 spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Eliptic01 said: You did not state a reference source to support your statement that this was a parable. Do you have a specific reference or is that the general approach that your personal theology takes towards the biblical/historical account of the Kings of Israel? Assuming it was a parabolic account, being that it is inspired scripture, that would not exclude it from nevertheless having a truism or truth in it, that is God having to grant the lying spirit to do so even as much as Satan needed God's permission in Job to bring evil on him: Job 1:12 "The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” If on the other hand, you reject the Bible as being the inerrant word of God, then your reply is your personal opinion only, completely lacking any other authority. I don't reject inerrancy at all. And this is not an inerrancy issue. The prophet is not relating a historical event, but is telling a story to make a larger point. First of all, God doesn't entice or tempt anyone. That is set forth in Scripture (James 1: 13). The story has the Lord actually committing sin by tempting someone and then perpetrating a lie, which is simply not how God operates. God does not sin and does not cause others to sin. That is why the story does not appear to be a historical event, but rather a way of the prophet to tell the truth to the king, that the prophets of Baal that he had consulted were giving him the wrong advice. This is born out in the same chapter with teh defeat of Ahab. This is not at all like the story of Job. No one was being enticed to sin, nor were there any lying spirits, so I am not sure the connection you are trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted October 28, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,803 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,779 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2018 On 10/4/2018 at 1:16 PM, Eliptic01 said: I Kings 22:21, 22, 23: …21Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. 22And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’ 23So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you.”… Using this scripture as his key to the argument, the noted Christian author Gordon H. Clark states the following in his well published book God and Evil: "But, while God is the ultimate cause of sin, He is not the author of sin" Gordon H. Clark is dead wrong. I do wish he had read the whole chapter of 1 Kings 22 and not just three verses with no contextual explanation. In a nutshell: King Jehoshaphat of Judah and King Ahab of Israel are deciding whether or not to go to war with Syria. King Ahab - the most wicked king Israel ever saw - is about to die and he doesn't know it. Ahab says, "Let's go fight." Jehoshaphat says, "OK, cool, but let's ask God first." Ahab says, "Ok" and he calls in 400 false prophets who tell him to "Go ahead to battle. You'll do great and God will take care of you." Jehoshaphat isn't so sure and says, "Isn't there a prophet here who speaks for God." [Wise question] Ahab got very frustrated and said, "Yes! There is one man, Micaiah, who speaks for God, but I hate that guy! He's always giving me bad news!" Jehoshaphat says, "A king shouldn't talk like that. Let's here what that guy has to say." So they call in the only man who speaks the truth of God - the other 400 were lying - still lying. They sat in a field and the 400 lying prophets were saying things like, "Look at these iron horns I made. This means God will help you to gore your enemy." Then here comes Micaiah.....he has been told to agree with the lying prophets, but he said that he would only speak what the LORD told him to. [Smart man] Ahab said to Micaiah, "Well, should we go and fight or hold back." Micaiah says quite sarcastically, "Oh, yes, go and fight. God will help you." [He must have been rolling his eyes or something because it made Abah mad. Ahab get mad and says, "I TOLD YOU TO ALWAYS SPEAK THE TRUTH!" Micaiah says, "OK. I see all of Israel scattered like sheep with no shepherd, their master dead, and God says send them home." Ahab looks at Jehoshaphat and says with anger, "SEE, I TOLD YOU HE ALWAYS SPEAKS AGAINST ME!!" Micaiah continues and says, "It is God who is planning on your death. I saw the armies of heaven around God on this throne and God asked, 'Who will make sure that Ahab goes to battle and dies?' After many suggestion, one spirit said, 'I can do it. I can make all those false prophets lie to Ahab and make him think he will be successful.' Then God said, 'Do it. You will be successful.'" One of Ahab's lying prophets slaps Micaiah and Ahab sends him to prison. Ahab believes the lies, goes to battle and dies. God did not cause anyone to sin. God did not author anyone to sin. God gave Ahab what he desired. Lies to puff him up. It was his time to die, according to the literal will of God. God made sure he died. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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