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Can You Lose Salvation? (Once Saved, Always Saved?)


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4 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This is a major problem in not seeing OT law division from NT grace...
OT saints are friends of The Bridegroom … NT saints are The Bride of the Groom. 

John 3:28-29

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
KJV

 

Jerusalem is the bride of Christ (Rev.21-2, 9-10). All O.T. saints (Heb.11:10-16) and Scripture teches all N.T. saints will go there (Heb. 13:14; John 14:1-30). This includes John the Baptist and other saints of all ages from Able to the end of the first resurrection (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; 1 Th. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6).

All John was expressing is the fact that he is not the bridegroom, but his friend, as are all saints who are "friends" of the bridegroom (Jn.15:13-15) As John invited people to Christ, so do all the members of the bride (Rev. 22:17).

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1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

Jerusalem is the bride of Christ (Rev.21-2, 9-10). All O.T. saints (Heb.11:10-16) and Scripture teches all N.T. saints will go there (Heb. 13:14; John 14:1-30). This includes John the Baptist and other saints of all ages from Able to the end of the first resurrection (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; 1 Th. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6).

All John was expressing is the fact that he is not the bridegroom, but his friend, as are all saints who are "friends" of the bridegroom (Jn.15:13-15) As John invited people to Christ, so do all the members of the bride (Rev. 22:17).

:off-topic: reigning myself back to OP

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31 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

:off-topic: reigning myself back to OP

You brought the Bride of Christ up, not I.

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King Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begin with, but he did not end in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart and soul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny truth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many Galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have bee lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any length in trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

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Lucifer, better known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Earth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

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Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:

Who are those on the left hand? All unrepentant sinners, including those who were once saved, returned to sin, and failed to repent of their sins.

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We seem to be forgetting the parable of the sower and the seeds. In it 3 quarters of saved people lose their salvation due to various reasons. But I know, I know, those people were never really saved in the first place.

Only God knows for sure.

This is my last post in this thread. No one will win here and I already know that. So a wise man keeps silent.

shalom

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Thank you, JTC, S.C.1, Hazard, and Warrior12 for the comments and encouragement.

Regarding this topic, I don't want to lead someone the wrong way.  We are called to persevere to the end and to complete the race, likewise, we are warned against apostasy.  On the other hand, scripture does say that Christ is able to keep those who are His.  Perhaps this is another one of those concepts which are challenging for mankind to grasp due to our temporal finite nature (such as one God, three distinct persons).

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