Can You Lose Salvation? (Once Saved, Always Saved?)

[JTC]

1 hour ago, *Pumpkin* said:

I have come across those who say that the Doctrine of Eternal Security is a "get out of hell free pass" and a license for immorality. Eternal Security does not teach a license for immorality, but to flee from a sinful lifestyle to pursue holiness and obedience to please the LORD. Titus 2:11-14 teach just the opposite; because the "Grace of God" leads to denying all ungodliness. The caveat in all of this is that we need to make absolutely certain that we are indeed His sheep, and not deceiving ourselves. The bible is explicit in 2 Corinthians 13:5) when it puts great emphasis for us to "examine ourselves" of whether we are truly in the Faith, and not reprobates i.e., "counterfeits").

A great place to start would be an examination of the fruit of the Spirit. Such as:

• Love
• Joy
• Peace
• Self-control
• Kindness
• Goodness
• Gentleness
• Faithfulness
• Patience

If we are in complete opposition of these Spiritual fruits, then that is a "red flag" that we may not be saved, or were never saved to begin with. When we are born-again, we are "new" creatures in Christ, and sin will have less dominion overs us during our life (cf. Matt. 3:8; Rom. 12:2-3; 2 Cor. 5:17; Heb. 6:1; 1 Jn. 3:9; 5:4; et al.). As we progress spiritually, we will have a greater hatred towards sin, and keep the commandments because we want to please God.

Good response Pumpkin. Another thing no one should ever be told is that accepting Christ will solve all your problems. (That was said a lot back in the 1970's when I was saved) The reality is being a Christian is hard and you may find you have more problems. Your reward comes after you die in heaven. The Internet is a tool of mixed blessings. It's often used to do the devils work such as porn. But it also allows babes in Christ to contact many older Christians who can answer their fears. All babes are frequently beset with fears because they misunderstand one thing or another. The first time I read Psalm 51 I panicked. I considered myself worse than David and where David had hope because he knew God liked him who was I, just some schmuck. I think I was on my knees an hour that night, after I read Psalm 51. Another big fear when I was a babe is the so-called unforgivable sin. The elders in my church were of little to no help at all. Back when I'm talking about Jimmy Swaggart was considered an expert but his answer made m e more scared. I read everything I could on that sin but I still felt I had done it. This went on over 1 yr. I finally read an explanation by a well known preacher who wasn't famous. I read much of his works and he usually made sense. He explained that only a very mature Christian can commit that sin because what that sin means is you are telling the Holy Spirit to go away, you no longer want Him, you prefer the pleasures of the world. It's like premeditated murder by someone who's completely sane and knows full well what he's doing. Finally I was relieved. I did most of my sins in stupidity and I never wanted God to leave me. I've explained this online to many babes. The Christian life is not an easy one and most of us don't see rewards until we leave earth, although some folks do. For people like me I have to always remember that nothing on earth can compare to being in God's heaven. It's the crown Paul said we are running this race to win.

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

This simply says Judas was chosen knowing who and what he was... the testimony of John 'they knew he was a thief of the purse' Jn 12:6! 

This second statement here ignores what God says of why he was chosen as the son of perdition so that we may understand his place there... There were 12 offices for the twelve tribe. The position of twelfth was given to Matthias by lot … Judas was given the position of office of bishopric but never filled it for he was the son of perdition!  

Again you are ignoring the why of Judas being chosen... The Twelve Apostles complete list chosen: Matt 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16

Sending Out the Twelve: Matt 10:10-15; Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6 Mark's specific tells us by two^s so whether Judas was given power or not is moot. God in many places in the OT gave abilities to individuals but were not of Him in spirit- In the OT, as these twelve were of till Acts 2, had or were of the distinction of The Spirit of God came upon not indwelt as regenerated individuals... again we must bring with us Judas was chosen for what he would do not any other reason and titled him 'the son of perdition' meaning like Jesus 'IS' Jesus so Judas 'IS' judas…

 

He fell from his apostleship by Transgression (Acts 1:25) 
Acts 1:25

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
KJV
Jesus chose him knowing his where ,(by choice of Judas), and that choice was Judas' in the very end by his own actions of choice! God knowing this chose him for this reason... You can never let go of one precept in The Scriptures to continue in the precept upon precept in Scripture... Judas was chosen as 'the son of perdition' and God says this of him

Matt 26:24-25

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
KJV
 

The rest of what you have written is built upon a false precept of ignoring this fact called a precept of Scripture and cannot be expected to be correct... one must carry every precept upon precept given in Scripture to arrive at the whole truth …. when one precept is let slip that which is built afterward becomes false precepts... There are many places in Scripture where I find myself waiting upon God to enlarge me so that I may continue but this place is not one of them Judas was placed in the twelfth office of bishopric knowing he was the son of perdition by self choosing and this to fulfill The precepts within Scriptures...

 

Judas was a saved man. All judas had to do was repent as Peter did after he denied Christ three times and eve cursed while doingit.cursed

 

Jesus also called Peter Satan, that doesn't make him Satan or a devil does it?

Matt. 16:23, But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark. 8:33, But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luke. 4:8, And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Also Peter cursed, swearing, and denied Christ three times before men,

  Luke 22:56, But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
  V. 57, And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
  V. 58, And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
  V. 59, And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.
  V. 60, And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
  V.61, And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
  V. 62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

MARK 14: 69, And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.

V. 70, And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.

V. 71, But he began to CURSE AND TO SWEAR,  saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

What does Jesus say about men who deny Him before other men?
Matt. 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Thankfully Peter wept bitterly over his sin and repented.
Matt. 26:75, And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Mark 14:72, And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when5 he thought thereon, he wept.
Luke 22:62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Judas instead of repenting began to feel sorry for himself and instead of repenting as Peter and the other disciples who denied Jesus and ran and hid, he committed suicide.

 

Sure, he did as He also knew Peter would deny Him three times before men. That does not mean Jesus would deliberately leave a man (Peter or Judas), out on a limb to face eternal punishment in hell?

All men, no matter what sin is committed, upon repentance the sin is forgiven. Once suicide is taken as a way out, then there is no possible way for a man to repent. Judas was no more a devil than Peter was a devil?

Remember, Jesus also called Peter Satan, but that doesn't make him Satan or a devil does it?
Matt. 16:23, But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mark. 8:33, But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luke. 4:8, And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Also Peter cursed, swearing, and denied Christ three times before men,
  Luke 22:56, But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
  V. 57, And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
  V. 58, And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
  V. 59, And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.
  V. 60, And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
  V.61, And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
  V. 62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
MARK 14: 69, And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.
V. 70, And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
V. 71, But he began to CURSE AND TO SWEAR,  saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
What does jesus say about men who deny Him before other men?

Matt. 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Thankfully Peter wept bitterly over his sin and repented.
Matt. 26:75, And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Mark 14:72, And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when5 he thought thereon, he wept.
Luke 22:62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Judas instead of repenting began to feel sorry for himself and instead of repenting as Peter and the other disciples who denied Jesus and ran and hid, he committed suicide. He was as saved as Peter and the other disciples were, all he had to do, as Peter did, was repent, nothing more. and his name would not have been removed from God's book of the living.

[*Pumpkin*]

I absolutely agree with everything you said, my brother! I can also relate to the experiences you've had in your Christian walk. The Christian walk is never easy, and as you rightly pointed out, we will experience more trials and hardships than non-believers; especially when we grow spiritually. I relate these experiences to the parable of the vine and the branches. Our Lord prunes the branches so we can bring forth more fruits and increase our spiritual growth. The pruning can be painful at times, but it is indeed necessary for us if we are to conform ourselves to the image of Christ. It's those houses that are built upon the rock which stands the test of time, and is proof that our faith is genuine; unlike the house built upon the sand, and such people will throw in the towel and give up when faced with trials, persecution, etc. I was also among those who dreaded that I had done the "unforgiveable" sin; but then I realised that only genuine believers would be concerned about this. An unbeliever could care less if they had committed the unforgiveable sin. Jesus Himself said that in "this life" we will have tribulations (John 16:33), but we can rejoice at the same time because we trust that God will see us through it, and that He is the source of our strength. We can also relate to Paul who said that he had suffered the loss of all things are mere excrement so that he may "win" Christ (Phil. 3:8). All the sorrow and tears that we will go through in our lives are nothing compare to what God has prepared for us who love Him (1 Cor. 2:9).

In Christ, *Pumpkin*

[enoob57]

36 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Judas was a saved man. All judas had to do was repent as Peter did after he denied Christ three times and eve cursed while doingit.cursed

 

Jesus also called Peter Satan, that doesn't make him Satan or a devil does it?

Matt. 16:23, But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mark. 8:33, But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luke. 4:8, And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Also Peter cursed, swearing, and denied Christ three times before men,

  Luke 22:56, But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
  V. 57, And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
  V. 58, And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
  V. 59, And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.
  V. 60, And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
  V.61, And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
  V. 62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

MARK 14: 69, And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.

V. 70, And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.

V. 71, But he began to CURSE AND TO SWEAR,  saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

What does Jesus say about men who deny Him before other men?
Matt. 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Thankfully Peter wept bitterly over his sin and repented.
Matt. 26:75, And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Mark 14:72, And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when5 he thought thereon, he wept.
Luke 22:62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Judas instead of repenting began to feel sorry for himself and instead of repenting as Peter and the other disciples who denied Jesus and ran and hid, he committed suicide.

 

 

 

Sure, he did as He also knew Peter would deny Him three times before men. That does not mean Jesus would deliberately leave a man (Peter or Judas), out on a limb to face eternal punishment in hell?

All men, no matter what sin is committed, upon repentance the sin is forgiven. Once suicide is taken as a way out, then there is no possible way for a man to repent. Judas was no more a devil than Peter was a devil?

Remember, Jesus also called Peter Satan, but that doesn't make him Satan or a devil does it?
Matt. 16:23, But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mark. 8:33, But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Luke. 4:8, And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Also Peter cursed, swearing, and denied Christ three times before men,
  Luke 22:56, But a certain maid beheld him as he sat by the fire, and earnestly looked upon him, and said, This man was also with him.
  V. 57, And he denied him, saying, Woman, I know him not.
  V. 58, And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou art also of them. And Peter said, Man, I am not.
  V. 59, And about the space of one hour after another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this fellow also was with him: for he is a Galilaean.
  V. 60, And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
  V.61, And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
  V. 62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
MARK 14: 69, And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.
V. 70, And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
V. 71, But he began to CURSE AND TO SWEAR,  saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
What does jesus say about men who deny Him before other men?

Matt. 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Thankfully Peter wept bitterly over his sin and repented.
Matt. 26:75, And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Mark 14:72, And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when5 he thought thereon, he wept.
Luke 22:62, And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Judas instead of repenting began to feel sorry for himself and instead of repenting as Peter and the other disciples who denied Jesus and ran and hid, he committed suicide. He was as saved as Peter and the other disciples were, all he had to do, as Peter did, was repent, nothing more. and his name would not have been removed from God's book of the living.

 

One verse repudiates all this you have said about saved not saved not saved...

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV
So if your going on works based salvation then one time and that's it.... 

[HAZARD]

4 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

One verse repudiates all this you have said about saved not saved not saved...

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV
So if your going on works based salvation then one time and that's it.... 

So your saying Peter was not enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, did Peter backslide when he cursed and denied Christ three times?

Did you know Peter was a backslider?

Matthew 26:

1. Made Christ a lier (v 33-35)
2. Slept instead of praying (v 40)
3. Failed to moritify the flesh (v 41)
4. Relied on the arm of flesh (v 51)
5. Forsook Christ and fled (v 56)
6. Followed afar off (v 58)
7. Sat with the Lords enemies (v 58)
8. Gave up hope-discouraged (v 58)
9. became afraid of men (v 69-74)
10. Lied (v 69-74)
11. He denied Christ three times before men and Cursed (v 69-74).

 In Matt. 26:58; "But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end."

Fortunately unlike Judas who hung himself, Peter in his backslidden state repented and was forgiven by god.All Judas had to do was repent as Peter did.

Jesus had predicted his backsliding and re-conversion (Luke 22:31-34).

Christians can backslide, tear down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they ever again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the foundation of repentance and do their first works again

Hebrews 6:1-2,   v 1, Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
v 2, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

Rev. 2:5, Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[HAZARD]

1 minute ago, angels4u said:

What can we do to keep our Salvation ?

Jesus died ones and for all, how could Judas  be saved and then get lost again?

How can we keep our Salvation,do we need to add works?

Rev. 2:5, Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[angels4u]

1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

Rev. 2:5, Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

I deleted my post thinking I misunderstood that you think that somebody can lose their Salvation, some people hear the gospel and think they're all good until something happens and then than they fall away, they never accepted Jesus as their Savior in the first place and were never believers, which I believe happened also to Judas.

[enoob57]

9 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

So your saying Peter was not enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, did Peter backslide when he cursed and denied Christ three times?

Did you know Peter was a backslider?

Matthew 26:

1. Made Christ a lier (v 33-35)
2. Slept instead of praying (v 40)
3. Failed to moritify the flesh (v 41)
4. Relied on the arm of flesh (v 51)
5. Forsook Christ and fled (v 56)
6. Followed afar off (v 58)
7. Sat with the Lords enemies (v 58)
8. Gave up hope-discouraged (v 58)
9. became afraid of men (v 69-74)
10. Lied (v 69-74)
11. He denied Christ three times before men and Cursed (v 69-74).

 

 In Matt. 26:58; "But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end."

 

Fortunately unlike Judas who hung himself, Peter in his backslidden state repented and was forgiven by god.All Judas had to do was repent as Peter did.

 

Jesus had predicted his backsliding and re-conversion (Luke 22:31-34).

Christians can backslide, tear down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they ever again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the foundation of repentance and do their first works again

Hebrews 6:1-2,   v 1, Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
v 2, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 

Rev. 2:5, Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Peter was an OT saint until Pentecost... then He became an indwelt, regenerated bride of Christ....

[HAZARD]

21 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Peter was an OT saint until Pentecost... then He became an indwelt, regenerated bride of Christ....

 

Has nothing to do with it, so was Judas only he failed to repent of his sin, as the others did.

Moses was an Old testament saint who murdered a man.

King David was an Old Testament saint who committed adultery and had the husband of the woman he committed adultery with murdered.

So when did they become an indwelt, regenerated bride of Christ?

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by HAZARD

[enoob57]

3 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 

Has nothing to do with it, so was Judas only he failed to repent of his sin, as the others did.

Moses was an Old testament saint who murdered a man.

King David was an Old Testament saint who committed adultery and had the husband of the woman he committed adultery with murdered.

So when did they become an indwelt, regenerated bride of Christ?

 

This is a major problem in not seeing OT law division from NT grace...
OT saints are friends of The Bridegroom … NT saints are The Bride of the Groom. 

John 3:28-29

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
KJV