R. Hartono Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,934 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, n2thelight said: If the Church restrains evil,can you please tell me why there's so much evil in the world? Men hv freedom although evil is still restrained. Edited November 1, 2018 by R. Hartono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted November 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, R. Hartono said: Men hv freedom although evil is still restrained. The verse does not even hint that the evil is restrained. It clearly says the lawlessness is ALREADY AT WORK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 772 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,934 Content Per Day: 3.07 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 1, 2018 29 minutes ago, ARGOSY said: The verse does not even hint that the evil is restrained. It clearly says the lawlessness is ALREADY AT WORK. Yes but it is restrained until the tribulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted November 1, 2018 1 minute ago, R. Hartono said: Yes but it is restrained until the tribulation. No it is the revealing of the secret lawlessness that is currently restrained. The secret. Needs to be revealed. Something evil is currently keeping an evil secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2018 8 hours ago, ARGOSY said: You didn't read my post properly. The bible says the lawlessness and spirit of antichrist are already there before the revealing. If so what is being restrained? Not lawlessness, the lawlessness is already there: 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed Hopefully you can comprehend that. The lawlessness is ALREADY there, so it is NOT the lawlessness hold back. What is held back then? The SECRET is held back. The REVEALING is held back. Who keeps evil and lawlessness secret from the world? Who reveals secrets and exposes evil for what it is? Logic is that an evil entity keeps evil under wraps, a good entity exposes evil. This is what occurs in Rev 12, the good entity the church exposes Satan through preaching our testimony to the world. Thus Satan is removed from his place 3.5 years before the end as per Rev 12. this is the SAME timing as the coming to power of the beast 42 months before the end (Rev 13) which is the SAME timing as the revealing of the antichrist as per 2 thess 2 Even if you do not agree, at least acknowledge that Satan is removed from heaven as per Rev 12, 3.5 years before the end, which is the same time the withholder is removed when the antichrist is revealed. Of course I read your post. The spirit of Antichrist has been around since John's time. But the MAN of Antichrist, who is the man of sin turned Beast, is around now, and WILL BE revealed as the Beast when the time comes. It should be obvious what is being restrained or held back: it is the revealing of the man of sin. God will not allow him to be revealed until the proper time - which we know to be in the exact middle of the week. So we are agreed: it is the revealing that is being held back. You can believe it is Satan or demonic spirits that are preventing the man of sin from being revealed before the right time - but GOD ALONE knows that time. I am convinced that it is God through the church preventing the man of sin from moving ahead before the right time. Anyway, the THEME of 2 Thes. 2 is the rapture. If the rapture is not in the Greek word apostasia, then Paul never gets to his theme! What you are saying happens in chapter 12 is myth, from wild imagination. Unless you can show us exact verses saying what you are saying. I don't think you can. Verses 1-5 are about Jesus' birth, and how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus as a young child. Verse 6 is the woman fleeing - because she has just seen the abomination. Then it is the war in the heavens. Therefore I must disagree with you. Same timing? I believe when the man of sin declares he is God, he has opened himself up for demonic possession. Then very shortly after that, Satan is cast down and possesses the man of sin. Then he becomes the Beast of Rev. 13. No, I cannot agree for your timing is far off from truth. The one restraining is taken out of the way some time BEFORE the man of sin is revealed, SO THAT he can be revealed at the right time. Then, AFTER the restrainer is taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin is revealed (with some unknown amount of time between) and then Satan is cast down. Since it really is the church who is "taken out of the way" that unknown time is over 3 1/2 years. What I will agree on is that the man of sin is revealed at the exact midpoint of the 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2018 7 hours ago, ARGOSY said: No it is the revealing of the secret lawlessness that is currently restrained. The secret. Needs to be revealed. Something evil is currently keeping an evil secret. It does not make good sense. There is no secret except WHO the man of sin is. And once the church is taken out of the way, Satan is clear to have the man of sin enter the temple and show the world who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2018 7 hours ago, R. Hartono said: Yes but it is restrained until the tribulation. It is restrained or held back until the church is raptured out. Suddenly the Lord has no people on earth He can work through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2018 9 hours ago, ARGOSY said: All the comings fit together. Even 2 Thess 4/5 describes that coming on a day of wrath and destruction. No silent/secret coming exists if there is destruction for the ungodly on the same day. That is fantasy land. On one coming He remains in the clouds and then returns to heaven. In another coming He touches down and wins the battle of Armageddon. The truth is, the rapture of the church will be the trigger for the DAY. Always remember, the trigger is pulled BEFORE the gun goes boom. Therefore the trigger and the boom cannot be the same thing or happen at the same time. The rapture first, THEN the start of the DAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2018 9 hours ago, ARGOSY said: No Jesus was speaking to Jewish pre-trib believers just like now we have faithful Jewish Christians who will participate in the rapture. In v9-14 he refers to the gospel and people of faith. It is these people who are told to look for the signs of the second coming, occurring at the end of the age. No hint to these Jewish followers of Christ that there is an earlier rapture. May I suggest then you asked Jesus when you see him WHY he did not talk of the rapture during that discourse? He was speaking to HIS DISCIPLES. But we get to read what He said. Was it Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles) that asked Jesus about the end of the age? No, it was His Jewish disciples that asked about the end of their age. Did you not read? Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city... Upon WHO? Upon the Gentiles? No, upon the JEWS and Hebrews....and JERUSALEM. Sorry, but the earthly Jerusalem has no relationship with the Gentile church of today. But it figures very highly in the last 7 years of the age. I restate: He is talking to Jewish people about the end of THEIR age. Can you find one verse in that discourse that you can prove is pointed to the Gentile church of today? The disciples were showing Him the temple. He then spoke about it being torn down. Anything there about the church of today? NO, it was the JEWISH temple. "Take heed that no man deceive you." Now this can be pointed at both the Jew and the church. "7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." Church age stuff. We have seen these things take place. But here Jesus is not talking about the end. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. WHAT "end?" Wait and see. All this is still church age stuff. Jesus is just about to get to end times. This is his first mention of "the end." 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. WHAT gospel? This is the gospel OF THE COMING KINGDOM, not Paul's gospel! The end comes - that is the end of the 70th week - after the 7 years of tribulation. However, the end of the church age, not mentioned by Jesus at all, will come before the 70th week has started. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Now Jesus is at the end. He jumped right over the first half of the week and landed at the midpoint. Much of the rest of the chapter is about His coming, and being prepared. It can be understood for both the church and the Jew, for there are two comings, one for the church, and one to rescue the Jews. Therefore I disagree with you. Jesus was not really talking to the Gentile church of today. Verse 15 proves this. The abomination is a Jewish happening in THEIR temple. Why then would you wonder why Jesus did not mention the rapture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 688 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2018 11 hours ago, n2thelight said: If the Church restrains evil,can you please tell me why there's so much evil in the world? You have no idea what the world would be like if we did not exist. Oh, well, maybe you do: it would be very much like the last half of the 70th week! Evil would RULE. It has ruled in pockets on the earth over the church age, but God has not allowed Satan free reign. Whenever demonic rulers try to get together, Angels scatter them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts