What exactly will be seen during the Rapture

[iamlamad]

On 10/31/2018 at 11:04 PM, Adstar said:

It has absolutely nothing to do with the personal wishes of Christians.. It has everything to do with what God has planned.. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture.. it will happen on the day of the return of the LORD Jesus Christ at the final trumpet..

You are partly right: the rapture WILL happen at the last trump: Paul said as much.  But it WILL be pretrib. 

I would guess you cannot even pinpoint where "the trib" is in Revelation - yet you think you know the rapture cannot be pretrib. I will further guess you don't know where the rapture will be in Revelation either.

Did you  read how God gives us the desires of our hearts? If someone is determined to see the Beast, by getting left behind - I think God will honor their faith. They will be left behind. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by iamlamad

[ARGOSY]

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I read your post. The spirit of Antichrist has been around since John's time. But the MAN of Antichrist, who is the man of sin turned Beast, is around now, and WILL BE revealed as the Beast when the time comes. 

It should be obvious what is being restrained or held back: it is the revealing of the man of sin.  God will not allow him to be revealed until the proper time - which we know to be in the exact middle of the week.  So we are agreed: it is the revealing that is being held back.  You can believe it is Satan or demonic spirits that are preventing the man of sin from being revealed before the right time - but GOD ALONE knows that time.  I am convinced that it is God through the church preventing the man of sin from moving ahead before the right time. Anyway, the THEME of 2 Thes. 2 is the rapture. If the rapture is not in the Greek word apostasia, then Paul never gets to his theme!

 

What you are saying happens in chapter 12 is myth, from wild imagination. Unless you can show us exact verses saying what you are saying. I don't think you can.  Verses 1-5 are about Jesus' birth, and how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus as a young child. Verse 6 is the woman fleeing - because she has just seen the abomination. Then it is the war in the heavens. Therefore I must disagree with you. 

Same timing? I believe when the man of sin declares he is God, he has opened himself up for demonic possession. Then very shortly after that, Satan is cast down and possesses the man of sin. Then he becomes the Beast of Rev. 13. 

No, I cannot agree for your timing is far off from truth. The one restraining is taken out of the way some time BEFORE the man of sin is revealed, SO THAT he can be revealed at the right time. Then, AFTER the restrainer is taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin is revealed (with some unknown amount of time between) and then Satan is cast down. Since it really is the church who is "taken out of the way" that unknown time is over 3 1/2 years. 

What I will agree on is that the man of sin is revealed at the exact midpoint of the 7 years.

The restrainer is removed just before the man of sin comes to power. Rev 13 We know the beast has 3.5 years of final persecution.

 

Rev 12 Satan is removed from heaven just before 3.5 years of final persecution. Bingo!

 

Two entities removed just before 3.5 years of persecution. Makes you think doesn't it?

[Still Alive]

On 10/6/2018 at 11:59 PM, R. Hartono said:

THE SOUND OF TRUMPET AND MILLIONS OF ANGELS WILL BE BE SEEN WHEN THE RAPTURE TAKES PLACE :

The rapture is not a silent occurence where people suddenly disappear without any cause and causes confusion as to why they disappear (as depicted in the movie LEFT BEHIND by Nicolas Cage, see youtube ).

Lord Jesus says the mighty sound of trumpet will be heard through out the whole world like when Father Jehova descended to Mt. Sinai

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And look, Jesus also says that He will send His angels (perhaps millions) to gather the elect from all over the world, the world will undoubtedly see the sky fills with angels everywhere taking the elect to the cloud.

People will tremble when they hear the trumpet and God descended in the thick cloud like when He descended on Mt. Sinai.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were THUNDERS AND LIGHTNINGS, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp TREMBLED.

The angels will take one and leave another one as described here :

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This verse also proof that Rapture will happen when the sun still shines (people work in the field during day light).

AND THE RAPTURE WILL BE PRECEDED BY A MIGHTY STORM WHICH BRINGS DARKNESS TO THE EARTH.

Psalm 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:2 .... Clouds and darkness are round about him

Deut 5:22 These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the THICK DARKNESS, with a great voice...

When Jesus was crucified there was darkness on earth which signs He is the truly Son of God.

Luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

The preceding darkness be4 the appearance of Jesus during the Rapture may look like this :youtube.com/watch?v=qx81AXVNUh8

People will cry because they see that Jesus Christ will not come to rule the world but to take the elect with Him to heaven :

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If Jesus appearance is to rule the world people will not mourn, and after the rapture people willl somehow feel inside their heart that something really bad is coming to the earth.

So for many people making a movie depicting people suddenly disappear without notice at the rapture, absolutely wrong. The storm, the black cloud and then the mighty sound of trumpet and million of angels shall be coming with Jesus visible on the cloud. The whole world will stop to watch this mighty occurence.

Some people say that nuclear icbm will fall at the rapture, thats absolutely imaginative.

Some people also say that "we go up, missiles come down", thats imaginative, God cannot be rule by any man so as to force the rapture to happen quickly.

Some people say that "pregnancy " will disappear and also little babies/toddlers, thats also imaginative, because there will be children in the tribulation.

Matt 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

 

Edited by Omegaman 3.0 - Videos removed. Videos are only allowed in the Video section of the forum.

 

In all seriousness, I believe this is the best answer for those who actually study this:

You'll know it when you see it.

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, ARGOSY said:

The restrainer is removed just before the man of sin comes to power. Rev 13 We know the beast has 3.5 years of final persecution.

Rev 12 Satan is removed from heaven just before 3.5 years of final persecution. Bingo!

Two entities removed just before 3.5 years of persecution. Makes you think doesn't it?

No Bingo. The truth is, the restrainer is NOT removed "just" before.  What we do know is the rapture will be pretrib but only a second before the Day of the Lord. Then perhaps 10 days later (ten days of awe?) the 7th seal will start the 70th week.  At the midpoint, after 1260 days, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. The 7th trumpet will sound marking that exact time in heaven. Michael will go to war with Satan after hearing the 7th trumpet sound. Then the man of sin will turn beast, after being possessed by Satan. And then the Beast will get his 42 months.  

The 42 months of trampling will end slightly before the 7th vial that ends the week, because those armies will head for the valley of Armageddon. The 1260 days of testifying will end 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.  The 1260 days of fleeing will end at or near the 7th vial. The 3.5 years of feeding will end at or near the 7th vial. The 42 months of authority will extend PAST the 7th vial because Jesus will not return right at that 7th vial that ends the week.  Your theory is messed up.

[ARGOSY]

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No Bingo. The truth is, the restrainer is NOT removed "just" before.  What we do know is the rapture will be pretrib but only a second before the Day of the Lord. Then perhaps 10 days later (ten days of awe?) the 7th seal will start the 70th week.  At the midpoint, after 1260 days, the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. The 7th trumpet will sound marking that exact time in heaven. Michael will go to war with Satan after hearing the 7th trumpet sound. Then the man of sin will turn beast, after being possessed by Satan. And then the Beast will get his 42 months.  

The 42 months of trampling will end slightly before the 7th vial that ends the week, because those armies will head for the valley of Armageddon. The 1260 days of testifying will end 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.  The 1260 days of fleeing will end at or near the 7th vial. The 3.5 years of feeding will end at or near the 7th vial. The 42 months of authority will extend PAST the 7th vial because Jesus will not return right at that 7th vial that ends the week.  Your theory is messed up.

My theory is that the antichrist will come to power for 3.5 years. This is Satan's period of wrath. At the end we will be raptured at the coming of Christ as described in Matthew 24, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4/5

 

Which is your favorite scripture to contradict this?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

My theory is that the antichrist will come to power for 3.5 years. This is Satan's period of wrath. At the end we will be raptured at the coming of Christ as described in Matthew 24, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4/5

 

Which is your favorite scripture to contradict this?

Rev. 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Bingo! 42 months or 3.5 years. This count to start slightly after the midpoint and end when Jesus returns to earth to the battle of Armageddon.  It is indeed Satan's period of wrath - but it is also part of GOD'S period of wrath. No one can separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath for they are concurrent in time. 

In fact, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, when the murdering is at its peak, then God will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.

Therefore, forget every trying to separate God's wrath from the devil's wrath or vice versa. 

Where does the rapture fit into this? It does not fit! The rapture will come before the 6th seal, which is before the entire 70th week begins. 

5th seal: martyrs of the church age: told they must wait for the final martyr of the church age.

Rapture of the church when the last martyr is killed

6th seal starts the Day of His wrath.

Guess: ten days of awe. 

7th seal opened, the BOOK opened & the 70th week to begin.

First 6 trumpet judgments - all come with God's wrath.

7th trumpet marks the midpoint.  The man of sin has entered the temple.

Those in Judea begin to flee 12:6

Satan is cast down.

The Beast's 42 months start.

This is John's order. Any other order will be error.

[n2thelight]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You have no idea what the world would be like if we did not exist. Oh, well, maybe you do:  it would be very much like the last half of the 70th week! Evil would RULE. It has ruled in pockets on the earth over the church age, but God has not allowed Satan free reign. Whenever demonic rulers try to get together, Angels scatter them. 

When you say evil would rule,what do you mean?

[n2thelight]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

7th trumpet marks the midpoint.  The man of sin has entered the temple.

Christ returns at the 7th,how do you get that to be the mid point?

[ARGOSY]

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Rev. 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Bingo! 42 months or 3.5 years. This count to start slightly after the midpoint and end when Jesus returns to earth to the battle of Armageddon.  It is indeed Satan's period of wrath - but it is also part of GOD'S period of wrath. No one can separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath for they are concurrent in time. 

In fact, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, when the murdering is at its peak, then God will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.

Therefore, forget every trying to separate God's wrath from the devil's wrath or vice versa. 

Where does the rapture fit into this? It does not fit! The rapture will come before the 6th seal, which is before the entire 70th week begins. 

5th seal: martyrs of the church age: told they must wait for the final martyr of the church age.

Rapture of the church when the last martyr is killed

6th seal starts the Day of His wrath.

Guess: ten days of awe. 

7th seal opened, the BOOK opened & the 70th week to begin.

First 6 trumpet judgments - all come with God's wrath.

7th trumpet marks the midpoint.  The man of sin has entered the temple.

Those in Judea begin to flee 12:6

Satan is cast down.

The Beast's 42 months start.

This is John's order. Any other order will be error.

Okay so your personal view is that the rapture occurs before the 6th seal. And the 6th seal is well before the second coming.

I agree that the rapture occurs before the 6th seal, but I see the 6th seal as the second coming. The wording favors my view:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Edited November 2, 2018 by ARGOSY

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Okay so your personal view is that the rapture occurs before the 6th seal. And the 6th seal is well before the second coming.

I agree that the rapture occurs before the 6th seal, but I see the 6th seal as the second coming. The wording favors my view:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Don't you wonder why John would write of His coming to battle over and over again - and different each time? (some also see a coming at the 7th trumpet.) John does a splendid job of showing His coming to the battle in chapter 19.  That is many chapters after chapter 6. 

For your theory to be correct, then John jumbled up his chronology, OR the Holy Spirit did it and John followed. 

However, I don't think John did this - OR the Holy Spirit: I see Revelation as perfect in Chronology. I don't see Jesus coming BEFORE the days of GT, because in Matthew 24 He plainly tells us His coming is AFTER the days of GT. 

A careful study of Revelation shows us what causes the great tribulation: it will be great pressure put upon people to take the mark and bow to an idol, or be put to death. And we can determine these days will not come until AFTER God warns, in chapter 14. They we read that the beheaded begin showing up in chapter 15! 

And you expect us to believe that the GT is before the 6th seal? Sorry, but not many will fall into such error. 

Why do you imagine Jesus has to be on earth to be angry? Can He not be angry in heaven? He knows everything that is happening on earth without being present on earth? Why do you imagine Jesus most be present for "The day of the Lord" to begin? There are no verses proving such things.  It is therefore only imagination. 

On the other hand, even a 5th grader could read chapter 19 and see a coming. It is very plain there. 

I guess I am asking, why do you see His coming to battle at the 6th seal, when you have to guess it is a coming  - when in chapter 19 it is VERY PLAINLY His coming?