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What exactly will be seen during the Rapture


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5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you believe John wrote the book as the Holy Spirit spoke to him, and the Holy Spirit was not trying to confuse us, then the rapture comes before the entire week, as shown by 1 thes. 4 & 5 and Revelation 6 & 7. We will wait out the entire week in heaven.

1 these 4/5 associates the rapture with a day of wrath and the day of the Lord, at the coming of Christ.

At the end pretribs have to have two last trumpets, two comings of Christ, two resurrection to make their view work.

Revelation has multiple visions about the end times. The 6th seal of Rev 6 is obviously the second coming if you honestly meditate on the wording. Rev 7 then shows the multitude in heaven.

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13 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

1 thes 4/5 associates the rapture with a day of wrath and the day of the Lord, at the coming of Christ.

At the end pretribs have to have two last trumpets, two comings of Christ, two resurrection to make their view work.

Revelation has multiple visions about the end times. The 6th seal of Rev 6 is obviously the second coming if you honestly meditate on the wording. Rev 7 then shows the multitude in heaven.

Agreed: Paul tells us about the rapture in chapter 4 and then gives us timing information in chapter 5.  In my mind, Paul tells us that His coming (FOR His saints) will trigger the Day of the Lord and His wrath. Not that the rapture is inside the DAY, but that the rapture comes first  - triggering the DAY. The day of the Lord is the Day of His Wrath - meaning, synonymous terms. The rapture MUST take place before the Day of His wrath begins - and that is what Paul shows us.

 

I'm OK with two comings of Christ: first FOR His saints and then WITH His saints. I think this is what scripture shows us.

Please explain how pretrib causes two "last trumps" and two resurrections.

If you back off a hundred paces and look at the book with the 7 seals - there is no way to open this book UNTIL all 7 seals are opened first.  That is just a fact people ignore. If we read in chapter 8, the 7th seal is opened and then the book is opened: the trumpet judgments are what is written INSIDE the scroll as it is unrolled - and as it is unrolled farther, the vials.

What you suggest is therefore simply impossible. His coming as seen in Rev. 19 is perhaps after the book has finished, or at least after it has been unrolled on one side and rolled up on the other side PAST the end of the 70th week. John really does not tell us where the book ends. It may be after John describes the Holy City.  John does not even tell us in chapter 8 that he is now seeing what is inside the book - but we can deduce that from what John does write. 

Did you ever see a play where the curtains close - so they can rearrange the set for the next act? That is what John does between the 6th and 7th seals. You see, the 7th seal is the official opening of the 70th week of Daniel - or the time of Jacob's trouble.  In the mind of God, TWO THINGS must be accomplished before that 70th week can begin. Since it will begin with God's wrath, the CHURCH must be safely seen in heaven because God will set no appointments for us with His wrath. Next, the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection before the week can begin. In chapter, John's first intermission, God accomplished what must be done before the week can begin. The week then begins when the 7th seal is opened to reveal what is written INSIDE the book.

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The only way one gets to heaven before the return of Christ is if they die first.

Now I'm sure(but not really)most on these forums have more than a 5th grade education,with that said ,let's break this down

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

I'm almost certain you were all taught to follow the subject,so what's the subject of the above?Answer,Christ coming and our gathering to Him.

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is  at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. 

Now let's see who comes with Christ when He returns

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Okay let's do this subject thing again,what is it?

Those who are asleep(died) and you not being ignorant .

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Now following the subject,whom does Christ bring with Him?

Those who sleep(died)or those who were raptured?

Again the only way one gets to Heaven is if they die first,I don't see nothing that says those raptured return with Him,it says those that have died return with Him,period!!!!!

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

 

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

 

 

 

 

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Now let's do the,I go prepare a place for you.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

Now the subject is in verse one.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose for the dead to ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.

 

 

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20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Agreed: Paul tells us about the rapture in chapter 4 and then gives us timing information in chapter 5.  In my mind, Paul tells us that His coming (FOR His saints) will trigger the Day of the Lord and His wrath. Not that the rapture is inside the DAY, but that the rapture comes first  - triggering the DAY. The day of the Lord is the Day of His Wrath - meaning, synonymous terms. The rapture MUST take place before the Day of His wrath begins - and that is what Paul shows us.

 

I'm OK with two comings of Christ: first FOR His saints and then WITH His saints. I think this is what scripture shows us.

Please explain how pretrib causes two "last trumps" and two resurrections.

If you back off a hundred paces and look at the book with the 7 seals - there is no way to open this book UNTIL all 7 seals are opened first.  That is just a fact people ignore. If we read in chapter 8, the 7th seal is opened and then the book is opened: the trumpet judgments are what is written INSIDE the scroll as it is unrolled - and as it is unrolled farther, the vials.

What you suggest is therefore simply impossible. His coming as seen in Rev. 19 is perhaps after the book has finished, or at least after it has been unrolled on one side and rolled up on the other side PAST the end of the 70th week. John really does not tell us where the book ends. It may be after John describes the Holy City.  John does not even tell us in chapter 8 that he is now seeing what is inside the book - but we can deduce that from what John does write. 

Did you ever see a play where the curtains close - so they can rearrange the set for the next act? That is what John does between the 6th and 7th seals. You see, the 7th seal is the official opening of the 70th week of Daniel - or the time of Jacob's trouble.  In the mind of God, TWO THINGS must be accomplished before that 70th week can begin. Since it will begin with God's wrath, the CHURCH must be safely seen in heaven because God will set no appointments for us with His wrath. Next, the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection before the week can begin. In chapter, John's first intermission, God accomplished what must be done before the week can begin. The week then begins when the 7th seal is opened to reveal what is written INSIDE the book.

 

If you believe in a pre-trib rapture you would associate that rapture with the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52

Yet the end of this age is associated with a trumpet call, which will be the last trumpet of this age, as per Matthew 24:31

So pre-tribs have a last trumpet, before the last trumpet

 

Now a major theme of 1 Corinthians 15 is the actual resurrection. The receiving of imperishable bodies at the resurrection. Yet pre-tribs place this  rapture/resurrection before the second coming.

Whereas rev 20 places the first resurrection at the second coming at the beginning of the 1000 years:

They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reignedwith Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 

Even Daniel 11/12 associated the resurrection with the end of the antichrist:

44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake

 

You may not realise it, but to place all these events together works very well, with no confusion or contradiction. yet pre-trib has two comings, two last trumpets, two resurrections to be able to justify events that are both associated with the rapture and the second coming. Even two rapture descriptions, because Matthew 24 has a rapture description at the second coming. 

 

Edited by ARGOSY
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There have and will be many last trumpets of events in this world... because of the commonness of this- context must apply to what the last trumpet of event is... or one must identify the last trumpet as event in it's self through the Biblically defined justification for such >that is not there<

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1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

There have and will be many last trumpets of events in this world... because of the commonness of this- context must apply to what the last trumpet of event is... or one must identify the last trumpet as event in it's self through the Biblically defined justification for such >that is not there<

That's some pretty funny eschato-babble there.  The last trumpet is the trump of God.

  • For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thess 4:16
  • In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Cor 15:52

What was the first trump of God?  Read Exodus 19.

What is the last trumpet of God?  Read Zechariah 9.

It's there for those willing to see it.

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33 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

That's some pretty funny eschato-babble there.  The last trumpet is the trump of God.

  • For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thess 4:16
  • In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Cor 15:52

What was the first trump of God?  Read Exodus 19.

What is the last trumpet of God?  Read Zechariah 9.

It's there for those willing to see it.

It's about releasing our will to The Will of Scripture and Holy Spirit.... I am willing to do that but I have already read your stuff and we have very little in agreeance! 

daze 


 confused state: a state of confusion and unclear thinking, often the result of a blow or shock 
Things happened so quickly I was left in a daze. 
 


vt (past and past participle dazed, present participle daz·ing, 3rd person present singular daz·es) 
1.  stun somebody: to leave somebody wholly or partly unconscious or unable to think clearly, especially as a result of a blow or shock 
The blow seemed to have dazed her. 
 
2.  bewilder somebody: to leave somebody feeling confused or amazed  


[14th century. Back-formation < dazed < Old Norse dasaðr "weary from cold or exertion"]


-dazed, , adj 
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
 

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43 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

It's about releasing our will to The Will of Scripture and Holy Spirit.... I am willing to do that

Or so you say.  Wisdom is justified by her deeds.

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5 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

 

If you believe in a pre-trib rapture you would associate that rapture with the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:52

Yet the end of this age is associated with a trumpet call, which will be the last trumpet of this age, as per Matthew 24:31

So pre-tribs have a last trumpet, before the last trumpet

 

Now a major theme of 1 Corinthians 15 is the actual resurrection. The receiving of imperishable bodies at the resurrection. Yet pre-tribs place this  rapture/resurrection before the second coming.

Whereas rev 20 places the first resurrection at the second coming at the beginning of the 1000 years:

They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reignedwith Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 

Even Daniel 11/12 associated the resurrection with the end of the antichrist:

44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake

 

You may not realise it, but to place all these events together works very well, with no confusion or contradiction. yet pre-trib has two comings, two last trumpets, two resurrections to be able to justify events that are both associated with the rapture and the second coming. Even two rapture descriptions, because Matthew 24 has a rapture description at the second coming. 

 

How do you know that the trumpet in Matthew 24 is the "last" trump? It does not say last. Do you believe God is going to send angels to collect every trumpet in heaven and on earth so that no more trumpets can EVER be sounded - not in heaven nor on the earth - nor anywhere in between? And then God would have to remove the memory of trumpets so that no one would EVER build anther trumpet EVER. And that would mean, no trumpet during the 1000 year reign of Christ, NO trumpet ever in the Holy city, no trumpet ever in the New Heaven and New earth. Is that your meaning?

Of course that was not Paul's meaning when He wrote, "at the last trump." Because we KNOW the above sarcasm is not the intended mean, we have to qualify what Paul wrote: the last trump of a certain SERIES of trumpets. Many people now believe Paul's meaning was, the final or last trumpet blast at the FEAST of trumpets which take place EVER YEAR. 

When we understand what Paul was really saying, then of course, on some unknown year, at the feast of trumpets, the final or last trump will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised. And then, some 7 plus years later, when Christ returns to earth, to Armageddon, He will send out angels with the sound of a trumpet, and gather the JEWS and HEBREWS all back to Israel - from heaven, and from earth - WHEREVER a descendant of Jacob is found.

Therefore, there will be a "last trump" sounded at the pretrib rapture, and 7 years later, another trump sounded when Jesus returns to earth. Problem solved.

Yet pre-tribs place this  rapture/resurrection before the second coming.  How can the rapture/resurrection take place WITHOUT a coming? OF COURSE He comes. Paul mentions a coming in 1 thes. 4. And it will be His SECOND coming. I think you meant before His THIRD coming.  The truth is, pretribbers (at lease Me as a pretribber)  place the rapture right where Paul places it, a moment before God's wrath begins - as John shows us, at the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction" from which the rapture SAVES us from.

Whereas rev 20 places the first resurrection at the second coming at the beginning of the 1000 years:  Sorry, but this is a first in PRIORITY, not a first in sequence.  There are only TWO resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. Jesus was the firstfruits of the primary resurrection - for the just -  and he rose LONG LONG LONG before the beginning of the millennial reign! 

This is the PRIMARY  resurrection.  This is the CHIEF resurrection.  This is the most honored resurrection. 

In case you missed it, Daniel and his cronies were a part of the Old Testament.  Jesus said several times to Daniels brothers and sisters that He would raise them up ON THE LAST DAY.  When is the last day? It is at the 7th vial. That is when the Two witnesses will rise up, with ALL their Old Covenant brothers and sisters - on the last day. As you can see, this does not include the church. The church is not part of Daniel's group. Did you not read how God blinded the Jews and Hebrews until the FULLNESS of the Gentiles are come in? AFTER the Gentile church is raptured, THEN the 70th week will begin and God will once again focus on the Jews.

You may not realize this, but posttribbers will MISS the marriage and supper, held IN HEAVEN, before Christ returns to the battle of Armageddon. And you will have STOLEN the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment. And you will have stolen any possibility for God to replenish the earth during the Millennium. 

 

 

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