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R. Hartono

What exactly will be seen during the Rapture

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1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

Kindly read 2 Thess 2 carefully. The lawlessness is already on earth, but secretly. Other verses in the Bible indicate the spirit of antichrist is already in the world. What is being held back? The revealing, not the lawlessness. It is an evil entity that tries to hide evil. Good exposes evil.

Satan is the restrainer who tries to keep the evil hidden. Satan is removed 1260 days before the end as per Rev 12. This is when the antichrist is revealed 42 months before the end (read Rev 13)

Sorry, but evil does not restrain evil. Evil may well tried to hide, but it cannot restrain itself. On the other hand, the church DOES restrain evil. And in the case of 2 thes. 2, when the church (as the restraining force) is "taken out of the way," then the man of sin can be revealed.

Be sure and check this out with other translators: in 3b the man of sin IS revealed. Therefore in 3a the restrainer must be taken out of the way.

I agree: he will be revealed when he enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. And that will divide the week into two halves.

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1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

The 6th seal is the second coming. Even a baby Christian can see that. I often use peoples interpretation of the 6th seal to determine if they have any common sense at all regarding understanding the Bible. This is the second coming:

 I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

You are truly welcome to your view, but any Christian can see the second coming in those words.

It takes a very sophisticated person to declare that the second coming is the 6th seal. I mean one who has very heavy preconceived glasses. A beginning reader would see that God's wrath and the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. Did you not read in the Old Testament that the Day of the Lord is a DARK day of destruction where God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Now, what part of "destruction" fits the rapture? Oh, it really does not, does it? 

The truth is, His coming and the rapture comes a moment BEFORE the 6th seal and is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord.  You were close, but no cigar. Yes, when He comes as per 1 Thes. 4, it will be His second time to come to earth - but He will only come to the air, and then take the church back to heaven. It cannot possibly be the same coming as shown in Rev. 19 or His coming "after the tribulation" as shown in Matthew 24. Always remember, the "BOOM" of the gun comes AFTER the trigger, and the two can never be the same thing. The rapture and the DAY are two separate events and will never be the very same event. 

Note carefully, when He comes WITH His saints, as shown in Rev. 19, it will be His THIRD (3rd) coming. He will spend the 70th week in heaven.

Let me assist you here: 1 Thes. 4:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

Anyone can see, this is a COMING. 

 

 I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I have searched this text for "coming" over and over and I can assure you, that word is just NOT found here. The ONLy reference to God is in these words:  "the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb..." Do we or can we find any action words here to show that the Lamb is coming or going or doing anything? Sorry, no such words. All we can see from this scripture is that the Lamb has wrath. And we can know that the DAY of His wrath has come. 

Now lets look at another scripture:

Rev. 19:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Again a search will not find the word "coming," But we do find action words telling us very clearly it is a coming of our Lord. The highlighted text proves this.

Now another text:

Mat. 24:

 

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Aha! Here again we find the word "coming." we also see "carcase" in relation to His coming, which suggests very strongly that this is the same coming as seen in Rev. 19. 

I have seen people imagine a "coming" in many other verses. It is all imagination. He is coming twice more, once FOR His saints and then over 7 years later WITH His saints.

The second coming is not shown in Revelation, but will be just before the 6th seal. The 3rd coming is as shown in chapter 19. The Matthew 24 coming only fits with the Rev. 19 coming.

Please note, it is not wise to form doctrine on a single verse or even a single passage - especially when there are other passages that makes every other passage more clear.

For example, Paul makes it quite clear in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that His coming FOR His saints will be just before the start of the Day of the Lord - and that proves the rapture just before the 6th seal. Why fight or argue against what is clearly written?

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2 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

That's what you have been taught, sure, but in Matthew 24  Jesus does not hint at the earlier rapture for the church when the disciples ask him about his next coming.

Did you not stop to think that AT THE TIME, the church of today did not exist? Perhaps, if the Jews had accepted Jesus as their Messiah, the Gentile church of today would not exist. Jesus was answering JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age: and we know and can prove, the end of THEIR age is the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus PROVES this when He mentions the abomation. That  event will divide the JEWISH week of 7 years. It is no wonder then that Jesus did not mention the rapture: it was a SECRET until God revealed it to Paul. 

Question: do synagogues have anything to do with the Gentile church of today?

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you wish to wait until then, perhaps our Father can be persuaded to have you wait. But the CHURCH will be raptured before the week and will be escorted into heaven and to our mansions over 1007 years before you will see your mansion. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the personal wishes of Christians.. It has everything to do with what God has planned.. There will be no pre-tribulation rapture.. it will happen on the day of the return of the LORD Jesus Christ at the final trumpet..

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22 minutes ago, Adstar said:

There will be no pre-tribulation rapture..

The foolish Virgina shall be left n yell.

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4 hours ago, ARGOSY said:
9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have thought that was how post trib and prewrath came up with their views! I don't know how one can take 1 Thes 4 & 5 out of context. The context is the rapture.  We ALL know classic pretrib does not follow good exegesis on Rev. 4:1, but that is not the real place of the rapture anyway. 

I see posttrib trying to make the gathering in Matthew 24 the same as Paul's rapture, but it cannot be. 

A question could be asked: DOES the church restrain evil? Of course it does!

If the Church restrains evil,can you please tell me why there's so much evil in the world?

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you not stop to think that AT THE TIME, the church of today did not exist? Perhaps, if the Jews had accepted Jesus as their Messiah, the Gentile church of today would not exist. Jesus was answering JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age: and we know and can prove, the end of THEIR age is the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus PROVES this when He mentions the abomation. That  event will divide the JEWISH week of 7 years. It is no wonder then that Jesus did not mention the rapture: it was a SECRET until God revealed it to Paul. 

Question: do synagogues have anything to do with the Gentile church of today?

No Jesus was speaking to Jewish pre-trib believers just like now we have faithful Jewish Christians who will participate in the rapture. In v9-14 he refers to the gospel and people of faith. It is these people who are told to look for the signs of the second coming, occurring at the end of the age. No hint to these Jewish followers of Christ that there is an earlier rapture.

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It takes a very sophisticated person to declare that the second coming is the 6th seal. I mean one who has very heavy preconceived glasses. A beginning reader would see that God's wrath and the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. Did you not read in the Old Testament that the Day of the Lord is a DARK day of destruction where God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Now, what part of "destruction" fits the rapture? Oh, it really does not, does it? 

The truth is, His coming and the rapture comes a moment BEFORE the 6th seal and is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord.  You were close, but no cigar. Yes, when He comes as per 1 Thes. 4, it will be His second time to come to earth - but He will only come to the air, and then take the church back to heaven. It cannot possibly be the same coming as shown in Rev. 19 or His coming "after the tribulation" as shown in Matthew 24. Always remember, the "BOOM" of the gun comes AFTER the trigger, and the two can never be the same thing. The rapture and the DAY are two separate events and will never be the very same event. 

Note carefully, when He comes WITH His saints, as shown in Rev. 19, it will be His THIRD (3rd) coming. He will spend the 70th week in heaven.

Let me assist you here: 1 Thes. 4:

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

Anyone can see, this is a COMING. 

 

 I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I have searched this text for "coming" over and over and I can assure you, that word is just NOT found here. The ONLy reference to God is in these words:  "the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb..." Do we or can we find any action words here to show that the Lamb is coming or going or doing anything? Sorry, no such words. All we can see from this scripture is that the Lamb has wrath. And we can know that the DAY of His wrath has come. 

Now lets look at another scripture:

Rev. 19:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Again a search will not find the word "coming," But we do find action words telling us very clearly it is a coming of our Lord. The highlighted text proves this.

Now another text:

Mat. 24:

 

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Aha! Here again we find the word "coming." we also see "carcase" in relation to His coming, which suggests very strongly that this is the same coming as seen in Rev. 19. 

I have seen people imagine a "coming" in many other verses. It is all imagination. He is coming twice more, once FOR His saints and then over 7 years later WITH His saints.

The second coming is not shown in Revelation, but will be just before the 6th seal. The 3rd coming is as shown in chapter 19. The Matthew 24 coming only fits with the Rev. 19 coming.

Please note, it is not wise to form doctrine on a single verse or even a single passage - especially when there are other passages that makes every other passage more clear.

For example, Paul makes it quite clear in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that His coming FOR His saints will be just before the start of the Day of the Lord - and that proves the rapture just before the 6th seal. Why fight or argue against what is clearly written?

All the comings fit together. Even 2 Thess 4/5 describes that coming on a day of wrath and destruction. No silent/secret coming exists if there is destruction for the ungodly on the same day.

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17 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

With what, your opinion and verses taken out of context?

Gave you straight scripture,what part of the subject you didn't follow?

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but evil does not restrain evil. Evil may well tried to hide, but it cannot restrain itself. On the other hand, the church DOES restrain evil. And in the case of 2 thes. 2, when the church (as the restraining force) is "taken out of the way," then the man of sin can be revealed.

Be sure and check this out with other translators: in 3b the man of sin IS revealed. Therefore in 3a the restrainer must be taken out of the way.

I agree: he will be revealed when he enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. And that will divide the week into two halves.

You didn't read my post properly.  The bible says the lawlessness and spirit of antichrist are already there before the revealing. If so what is being restrained?      Not lawlessness, the lawlessness is already there:

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed

Hopefully you can comprehend that. The lawlessness is ALREADY there, so it is NOT  the lawlessness hold back.  What is held back then?

The SECRET is held back. The REVEALING is held back.   Who keeps evil and lawlessness secret from the world?  Who reveals secrets and exposes evil for what it is?   Logic is that an evil entity keeps evil under wraps, a good entity exposes evil.

This is what occurs in Rev 12, the good entity the church exposes Satan through preaching our testimony to the world. Thus Satan is removed from his place 3.5 years before the end as per Rev 12. this is the SAME timing as the coming to power of the beast 42 months before the end (Rev 13) which is the SAME timing as the revealing of the antichrist as per 2 thess 2

Even if you do not agree, at least acknowledge that Satan is removed from heaven as per Rev 12, 3.5 years before the end, which is the same time the withholder is removed when the antichrist is revealed.

 

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