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Help with Revelation 12:17


JoeCanada

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On 10/9/2018 at 1:11 PM, Revelation Man said:

The REMNANT (Small part that's left) of her SEED (Church) means exactly what it says.  The Rapture has come to pass and from that point on all men who come unto Christ will be in the Body of Christ but as a REMNANT, but the Bride is in Heaven, thus they are the 5 Virgins left out of the Marriage, the doors were closed on them because they did not have enough OIL (Holy Spirit) in them. They thus must repent, and in all likelihood lay down their lives for Christ Jesus. Thus they are the Saints under the Alter at the 5th Seal. 

The Jews in Petra repented and are by now Messianic Jews. 

You did very well up until you mentioned the 5th seal and those under the altar. Sorry, but the 5th seal will be FINISHED at the rapture of the church, since they are church age martyrs. 

It is improper to refer something at the middle of the week back to some seal. The seals are there ONLY to protect the book. Once the seals are opened, then the book can be opened  - to reveal the 70th week of Daniel.

Edited by iamlamad
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On 10/9/2018 at 12:51 PM, WilliamL said:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

This refers to the law of Moses, which included the 10 Commandments, but added other statutes and ordinances. Jesus' affirmed God's 10 Commandments:

Matt. 19:17 ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19  Honour thy father and [thy] mother...

But they will have the testimony of Jesus after they have seen Him coming in the clouds:

Zech 12:10 ...they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Joe was correct here: the "remnant of her seed" is referring to believers in Jesus Christ AT THAT TIME - not some time later. They will be all those Christians who were Christian in name only and were left behind. Certainly some of them will get very serious with God after they are left behind.  Most will be Gentile believers from the nations.

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On 10/31/2018 at 4:38 PM, iamlamad said:

Joe was correct here: the "remnant of her seed" is referring to believers in Jesus Christ AT THAT TIME - not some time later. They will be all those Christians who were Christian in name only and were left behind. Certainly some of them will get very serious with God after they are left behind.  Most will be Gentile believers from the nations.

They will be both: weak and fearful Christians, like the Israelites at Mount Sinai who "turned away" from God when he descended and called up His chosen into His Presence. The elect went up, the fearful and unbelieving did not.

AND, they will be the remnant of Israel, who came to faith only at Christ's appearance, and therefore were not ready to ascend at His Coming.

In short, they will be both Jew and Gentile believers, the earthly Church during the time of the Wrath. God will protect them in the wilderness, but purge them also, just as he did the Israelites during the Exodus.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

They will be both: weak and fearful Christians, like the Israelites at Mount Sinai who "turned away" from God when he descended and called up His chosen into His Presence. The elect went up, the fearful and unbelieving did not.

AND, they will be the remnant of Israel, who came to faith only at Christ's appearance, and therefore were not ready to ascend at His Coming.

In short, they will be both Jew and Gentile believers, the earthly Church during the time of the Wrath. God will protect them in the wilderness, but purge them also, just as he did the Israelites during the Exodus.

 

 

William, you missed an important point: this is at the  midpoint of the week, maybe only hours after the abomination. The Jews HAVE NOT SEEN Jesus yet - so they will still be in unbelief.  It will be mostly Gentile believers. 

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I haven't missed anything, I just reject your presumptions. The full 1260 days have nothing to do with the elect of the Church, only the earthly remnant.

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6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I haven't missed anything, I just reject your presumptions. The full 1260 days have nothing to do with the elect of the Church, only the earthly remnant.

Yes, you missed it.

Rev 12:And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

In verse 6 we see the fleeing begin, proving the timing as a second or two after the abomination that will divide the week. Then verse 14 tells us it is the start of the 3 1/2 year countdown, again proving the timing here as the middle of the week. 

At this time, the middle of the week, the Antichrist Beast will be just revealed as the beast.  He will have have had time to build the image or create the mark. 

In verse 17, we learn that the Dragon, finding that God is protecting the woman who fled, turns to the "remnant of her seed." WHO would that be? Jesus was the SEED and believers are of the SEED. But this is only a remnant, because the main load went to heaven at the pretrib rapture. 

Make no mistake, this remnant love Jesus and have His testimony. They are therefore Gentile Christians.  There may  be a scattered few Jews or Hebrews, but the majority of them will still have blindness upon them at this time.

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In the Bible, anointed Christians are called Jesus’ brothers, and as his brothers, they share the same Father and the same mother. (Hebrews 2:11)  Their Father is God Almighty.  Hence, their mother is the “woman,” being heavenly, is God’s (wife like) celestial organization.  They become a secondary part of the seed, Christ Jesus, being the primary part.  The remaining anointed ones of these spirit-begotten Christians on earth make up the balance of (144,000) God’s visible organization that serves under his womanlike organization in the heavens. (Revelation 6:11)   There, they will be united with Christ Jesus at their resurrection.-Romans 8:14-17.

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16 hours ago, Markie51 said:

In the Bible, anointed Christians are called Jesus’ brothers, and as his brothers, they share the same Father and the same mother. (Hebrews 2:11)  Their Father is God Almighty.  Hence, their mother is the “woman,” being heavenly, is God’s (wife like) celestial organization.  They become a secondary part of the seed, Christ Jesus, being the primary part.  The remaining anointed ones of these spirit-begotten Christians on earth make up the balance of (144,000) God’s visible organization that serves under his womanlike organization in the heavens. (Revelation 6:11)   There, they will be united with Christ Jesus at their resurrection.-Romans 8:14-17.

I agree until you get to the 144,000, most do not understand its a code just like "The Woman" in Rev. 12 is a code fir All Israel who repent. We can track down the Rev. 12 code via Genesis 37:9. For the Rev. 7 code we have to understand how God uses numbers. The 10 Virgins equals All Christendom because God uses 10 fir completion. God used 7 for Divine Completion, 6 for Mankind, 12 for Fulness. 8 for New Beginnings etc. etc. 

So, 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 is simply God telling us these are All Israel who repents. Likewise when Gid stated He had saved himself 7000 men who had not kneeled unto Baal, that was another way of saying Al Israel who eventually repents as in 7 (Divine Completion) x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000. We know how many repent because we live in the end time. Zechariah 13:8-9 says 1/3 repent and 2/3 refuse to repent and die, so since 10 million Jews live in Israel, and there are 15 million worldwide, the\at means 3.5 to 5 million Jews repent, thus the 144,000 simply tells us all of those who repent (3.5-5 million) will flee Judea in Rev. 7, where God protects them for 1260 days. Notice God orders the Angels to HOLD UP the Winds (Judgments) that HURT the Trees, Earth and Seas we in Rev. 8 we see that is the First Four Trumps. So, basically God says lets get these Jews saved (via Elijah and Moses see Malachi 4:5-6) and then after they flee Judea unto the Petra/Bozrah area the DOTL starts.

The Remnant are the Gentiles whom come to Christ after the Rapture, thus the Moniker REMNANT.

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

“….which keep the commandments of God…..” So, which commandments is scripture talking about? I’ve heard many Christians claim that the commandments were done away with, that they were nailed to the cross.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 KJV

Not to mention the commandments are IN THE ARK, not on the side of it which in itself is a BIG DIFFERENCE.  I'd Hate to be THE PERSON who teaches against that especially, when what else Jesus said is 

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.





8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


There are statutes, laws, ordinances and commands.  SINCE it was ONLY the ordinances that were against us, THAT would mean that NONE of the Commandments were done away with.  EVEN WORSE, is that they were made MORE INTENSE and we are made more responsible seeings as WE HAVE the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and they didn't.  SO how scary for those people who teach such things huh?

The laws given to Moses were for the Governing of an entire NATION.  Slaves for 400 years, THEY knew nothing.  So the 'laws' for the nation included everything from land to personal, from criminal to civil laws, then there were the laws and statutes and ordinances that all had their own meaning.  

SO WHAT EXACTLY was nailed to the cross?  ALL THE THINGS THAT JESUS BECAME FOR US, or took the place of.  

No more need for a temple. 
No more need for the furniture in the temple
No more need for the altar on which to sacrifice animals
Nor for priest to confess sins to
Nor any of the rituals that went along with all of that.  

THAT is what was NAILED TO THE CROSS because Jesus became the SACRIFICE WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH, the blood of unmatched value that was shed so we could be reconciled to God having been washed clean.  

How terribly sad that Christians today have NO CLUE as to what the work Jesus did for us FREED US FROM.  How LONG do you think it took to RECEIVE forgiveness for sin and be washed clean under the law compared to under grace.  

Under grace, we pray to GOD through the name of Jesus the Lamb slain where in repentance we confess our sins ask for forgiveness and that the blood was us clean.  

Under the LAW, a simplified example of ONE kind of offering would be when we went to go find the most perfect of our flock and bring it to the temple.  We had to talk through a priest but not directly to God ourselves, confessing our sins, we slashed the throat of the animal, shedding its blood upon the altar, praying to have our sins covered.  The priests also had rituals that went beyond that.  

ALL those were nailed to the cross. 

The laws for governing a nation quit being used when there was NO MORE nation to govern.  DOESN'T MEAN any of them changed.  

And that is my 2 cents.

 

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:17 AM, JoeCanada said:

Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus

The apostle John was on the Isle of Patmos when he wrote Revelations. He stated in the opening verse that he “bare record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ”….Rev 1: 1-2

The souls under the altar were “slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held”…Rev 6:9

In Rev 12:17… “ and the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her  seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Here are other scriptures which cite the “word of God and the testimonies’

Psalm 119:31

I cling to Your testimonies; O LORD, do not put me to shame!

Psalm 119:111

I have inherited Your testimonies forever, For they are the joy of my heart.

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Exodus 25:21

"You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you.

Exodus 26:34

"You shall put the mercy seat on the ark of the testimony in the holy of holies.

Exodus 40:20

Then he took the testimony and put it into the ark, and attached the poles to the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark

Exodus 30:6

"You shall put this altar in front of the veil that is near the ark of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is over the ark of the testimony, where I will meet with you.

Deuteronomy 6:17

"You should diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and His testimonies and His statutes which He has commanded you.

1 Kings 2:3

"Keep the charge of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn,

Psalm 25:10

All the paths of the LORD are lovingkindness and truth To those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.

So what is……”keeping the word of God, have the Word of God, Hold the word of God”…….. and also “the testimony of Jesus Christ”

It seems to be very significant in these last days.

“….which keep the commandments of God…..” So, which commandments is scripture talking about? I’ve heard many Christians claim that the commandments were done away with, that they were nailed to the cross.

How can this be if  In Rev 12:17… “ and the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her  seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

The remnant of her seed is the church is it not?.........  All born again believers?

Certainly Israel, the Jewish people, who escape into the wilderness, they don’t have  “the testimony of Jesus Christ”

And what is meant by....."the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

 

Pretty simple Joe, the 10 commandments are alive and well, it's those that strive to fight against the commandment of rest on 7th day sabbath

Roman Emperor Constatine in 325AD made (Sunday) a lawful day of rest, businesses closed etc, the 7th day Sabbath was never done away with

Jesus Is The Lord

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