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Woman of Revelation 12


R. Hartono

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Many times OVER TIME people change the meaning of compound words. A word heard frequently in universities in the 70's and 80's was the word "paradigm." It has gone far from its original meaning of "para" as in parallel or paratrooper; soldiers walking parallel. The "digm" was a showing or displaying. So a paradigm back somewhere in time was to bring two things right up close so one could display or show the difference or similarity.

It has morphed so now a paradigm is an example! The idea of two things side by side so them can be compared is lost.  it is the same with this Greek word. It was made up of two different words, EACH with its own meaning.  We can BET Paul knew well the meaning of each of these words "apo" and Stacia." But let me look it up again so I get it spelled right:

Paul tells us it is the feminine of this word:apostasion. It is made up of two words:From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476).

Do you know how this word was translated before the KJV?

Tyndale: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Both the Coverdale and the Geneva bible used the word Departing. It is an accurate translation of apostasia.

However, it is the entire context of this passage that should show a good student of the bible that the KJV translators missed it. 

Here are some points:  in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED in Paul's argument.

Verses 6-8 tell us he cannot be revealed until the force restraining him is "taken out of the way.  Since HE IS revealed in 3b, then in 3a,  the one restraining must be "taken out of the way." This is just logic. He cannot be revealed until the restraining force is removed.

The only possible conclusion then is that some how hidden in the word apostasia is the force restraining being take out of the way.  think about it. Can sin restrain sin? Can a falling away restrain sin. Can back-slidden people restrain sin or the man of sin?

 

It can only be one of two things in my mind: either before the "falling away" the Holy spirit was using those believers to restrain - OR before the rapture God was using believers to restrain the man of sin.  since the THEME of the passage is the gathering, it makes more sense to be that Paul's intended meaning is the rapture of the church removes the believers in whom the Holy Spirit was using to restrain. Once the rapture takes the church out of the way, the man of sin will then be revealed.

 

In 2 Thes 2:1....."Now we request you brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him"

Paul then goes on to say...."Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless...."

What does he refer to........"it will not come unless"?

Does it not refer to "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him".....?

Logically, it does. 

So, how does it make any sense what-so-ever, to then say....." the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming)  and out gathering together to Him (rapture) won't happen until the (removal of the church happens first)????????

If the church is removed, who is the Lord coming to gather to Himself?????

"Lucy, dyou ha sum esplainin' to do"

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17 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Very true, I have Not given much thought to this aspect, whether the seven churches all remain? But I do know they all have had overcomers.

 

David,

If the Manchild is the overcomer who gets raptured to heaven,  how could the dragon stand by to devour Him as soon as He was born ? because nobody knows the day and hour of the rapture not even the Son.

 

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3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

If the Manchild is the overcomer who gets raptured to heaven,  how could the dragon stand by to devour Him as soon as He was born ? because nobody knows the day and hour of the rapture not even the Son.

the Bride

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11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

In 2 Thes 2:1....."Now we request you brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him"

Paul then goes on to say...."Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless...." 

What does he refer to........"it will not come unless"?

Does it not refer to "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him".....?

Logically, it does. 

So, how does it make any sense what-so-ever, to then say....." the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming)  and out gathering together to Him (rapture) won't happen until the (removal of the church happens first)????????

If the church is removed, who is the Lord coming to gather to Himself?????

"Lucy, dyou ha sum esplainin' to do"

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless...."   Let's use the common rules of English:

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [it] that day will not come until the [apostasia] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Of course the "it" must refer back to "the day of the Lord." Some people imagine "the day of the Lord" and "the day of the rapture" are one and the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.  Paul teaches in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord, or that the day of the Lord will follow the rapture with no time between: the rapture takes place that ends the church age, and TIME is then the Day of the Lord.

From Old Testament scriptures, the day of the Lord is a dark day when God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. It is NOT the rapture.

Note that these folks had heard that because of the persecution upon them, the day of the Lord had already started and they were IN IT. IF Paul had taught a pretrib / pre day of the Lord rapture, it is easy to see why they would be upset: either Paul was wrong, or the missed the rapture! Indeed, what was really wrong is that they were NOT IN the Day of the Lord. So Paul teaches them how to know when one really Is INSIDE the Day of the Lord - that is has started and they are in it: IF they see the departing of the church, then see the man of sin revealed, then whoever has been left behind will know with certainty that the Day of the Lord has started and they are now IN IT.

In other words, it seems with a fast reading that Paul never gets to the gathering! That is, until one realizes that the gathering is what must come first.

Does it not refer to "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him".....?  Logically, it does.   No, it does not: "it" refers to what was just written before the "it" which is "the Day of the Lord."  However, if people mistakenly think (some do) that the rapture and Day of the Lord are synonyms, they just won't understand this passage.

So, how does it make any sense what-so-ever, to then say....." the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming)  and out gathering together to Him (rapture) won't happen until the (removal of the church happens first)????????  Of course it does not make sense. What DOES make sense is this: no one will be found IN "the Day of the Lord"  until they see the man of sin revealed, but he cannot be revealed until the rapture of the church comes FIRST: the one restraining being "taken out of the way."

If the church is removed, who is the Lord coming to gather to Himself?????  Of course AS the church is removed, Jesus gathers THE CHURCH to Himself - remember? In the clouds and in the air.

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9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

David,

If the Manchild is the overcomer who gets raptured to heaven,  how could the dragon stand by to devour Him as soon as He was born ? because nobody knows the day and hour of the rapture not even the Son.

The manchild was Jesus and he did get "raptured" back to heaven.  It is about JESUS birth, nothing else, nothing less.  In case you have not seen it, the picture of Virgo as described by John is exactly as it looked in Sept. of 2 BC.  I have looked from 10 BC to 10 AD and in every other year, when the moon was under her feet (only stays there one day) then the sun is in the wrong position.  In 2 BC, the sun is right at her shoulder, and clothes her with the sun's rays.

I must say again, when Jesus was teaching me chapter 12 He said: "I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born....those first five verses where a 'history lesson' for John."

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9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

If we keep in mind WHO will flee, we must remember that Jesus TOLD US: "those living in Judea..." That would be Jews for the most part. I believe those that flee will make up the biggest part of the Jews who survive and enter into the millennial kingdom.

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12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Now that I read your testimony, I will share something with you. Pray about it. I do not like personal messages because people think we are talking behind their back.  This will be my last post for the night. 

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Cor 12:11)

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

The Spirit of the Lord is a sevenfold Spirit. No one man is capable of having this Spirit in its fullness. That seven fold Spirit of the Lord was distributed amongst the seven churches. The LORD did this purposely, because he knew the heart of man is wicked. this animosity between the churches was by design, till the time when they would Join as one. The Book of revelation is a seven fold book. The sevens are obvious to anyone who reads the book, but no one person can understand the fullness of it till they understand the sevens. This is what I am trying to point you towards. Ask seven different Christians and they will give you seven different end time timelines. I am not talking about novice Christians but ones that have been studying it for years, Know all the ins and outs and details. The Problem is not the book, but the problem is the men studying it. Each Only have that one part of the Spirit of the Lord to understand the fullness of what is written there, But their pride keeps them apart from each other. You may be right on ten things, and I may be right on 10 things and abxyz may be right on another 50 things combined they make the whole 70 things it takes to understand revelation. This Prophecy is so much bigger than any one man can understand.

This is counter intuitive to the Logic of man. We want to know it all, and until we realize and accept that we cannot know it all, we will never begin to learn and reach the promise of Unity of the Spirit. So Part of my ministry is summed up in this phrase, "Can the teacher be Taught" That goes for all the teachers, for no one man has the full counsel of God. He is ultimately our teacher, and Yes prayer is the Key to understanding as you wrote, but understanding is only one part of the Spirit of the LORD. Please pray about this. When We are weak, then He is Strong. When we finally say "I do not know" is when He begins to teach us> You Know this from the beginning this worked for you, why stop now.     

There is much in Revelation I don't know, for Jesus only taught me certain areas. But those areas where He did teach me I know very well.

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11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

In 2 Thes 2:1....."Now we request you brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him"

Paul then goes on to say...."Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless...."

What does he refer to........"it will not come unless"?

Does it not refer to "the coming of our Lord and our gathering together to Him".....?

Logically, it does. 

So, how does it make any sense what-so-ever, to then say....." the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (second coming)  and out gathering together to Him (rapture) won't happen until the (removal of the church happens first)????????

If the church is removed, who is the Lord coming to gather to Himself?????

"Lucy, dyou ha sum esplainin' to do"

Bingo. 

The point here is that when you start with a preconceived framework, you will read that into the text. This is Human Nature, and not always a bad thing, But when it comes to learning it can be a bad thing. Science has this Problem as well, when people do science they come at it with presuppositions such as Darwinism, and they will make their results somehow reflect their presuppositions. Good science does not let these preconceived ideas interfere with the facts. Therefore it does not twist the facts to fit. The same can be said of good exegesis, especially in eschatology which is full of symbolism and By its nature mystery. We may even come to a conclusion, which seems sound, but then upon peer review we find something that makes us question our findings. This is a good thing, because then we are one step closer to the Whole Truth. 

As in the World, so in the church. Unfortunately, in the world now science changes by revolutions, because there is a secular agenda that is being promoted. Beware of people that say it is settled science... Think Global cooling, I mean warming, I mean climate change. There is an agenda that is being pushed. That is to tax the very air we breathe (out). So when something is said to settled as fact is when we need to be wary in the study of eschatology. Because there is an agenda being pushed. Instead of peer review, there is a revolution that takes place. An all out war, where one side calls the other side the forces of Evil. This is symptom of the culture we are living in now, and I would argue prophetic of the time of the end where Love waxes cold. A symptom of the falling away. 

The church has lost her saltiness. she is no different than the world, She has covered what little light she has left in her in shame. Silencing the saints by any means at their disposal. Emergent church teaching are being shoved on the congregations and those that oppose these teachings are quickly silenced and or kicked out. Many an elder in these churches has faced this fate. These new doctrines with their new songs and style of worship make church into just another BROAD WAY Play (Pun intended).  Yes the numbers of those churches may swell, and the buildings get bigger, but this is not a revival this is just how good an entertainer you are, and entertainment is Satan's substitute for Joy (I think Leonard Ravenhill said that once). There is nothing Holy about these houses of worship. These sanctuaries do not instill the fear of the Lord, as you enter, instead you feel like you are walking into a movie theater Grab some Popcorn and let the show begin. There is no conviction in these sermons, only feel good Humanism, and self Love being preached. This is exactly what Paul said, "they shall be lovers of their own selves... having a form of Godliness, But denying the power thereof, from such turn away." (2 Tim 3:1-5) This is all Part and parcel to the falling away.

We are seeing prophecy unfold, as the churches, one by one are falling into apostacy. The saints are being pushed outside, being born of the Woman, so to speak. Any Young Christians in them are being fed milk only, and they remain in their immature state. Very few spread their wings and fly. The seminaries are turning out hirelings armed with the best marketing techniques rather than men called by God to serve as shepherds. This again, is all part of the falling away. "Not my church" is what most will say, but that is because they are deceiving themselves, and the trust is placed in the numbers rather than the LORD. We Truly are in the Laodicean age, and the church is falling into apostacy. 

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Just now, iamlamad said:

There is much in Revelation I don't know, for Jesus only taught me certain areas. But those areas where He did teach me I know very well.

As I said, the first part of my ministry is "can the teacher be taught". You are beyond that point now, for you have exhibited Humility In The Spirit. I Ask You to study the concept of being meek, as you will find a blessing in this, and this will help you in being a fruitful teacher. The Word for meek in the Greek is Prays kind of fits nicely with the concept, as in prayer and praise is when we are meek. Here is what Strong's says about this, I found this to be a blessing in understanding meekness, and How this relates to being a teacher. in this you will find what it is to be a saint. I Know you do not agree with this concept that differentiates the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus, But this is what standing in the gap entails.

 

"mildness of disposition, gentleness of spirit, meekness

Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23)."
 
Not by Power or by might, But by my Spirit.....(Zech 4:6)
He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. (Isa 40:29)
 
The church is in dire need of Godly teachers such as yourself.
 
 
 
 

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