Woman of Revelation 12

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Perhaps you have missed John's parentheses. They throw many people off. Outside of parentheses, John's chronology is about as straight as an arrow, from His time to far into our future. In other words, events in a given chapter are going to be AFTER events of a previous chapter, and BEFORE events of a later chapter. If you disagree, show us your best example of something out of order.

This is easy, using your thinking. You say Rev 12:1-5 is telling us about Jesus Born of the Woman (Israel) and Herod as the Dragon. But what happens in Rev. 11? The two witnesses and the seventh trumpet. So If Rev. were sequential that means the 2 witnesses and the seventh trumpet occurred before Jesus rose from the dead, and also the seven churches were before then. LIKE I SAID, way to many contradictions. 

We also have the record of Prophecy from the past, You see the prophet is not writing what he thinks, but writing what he is shown. Prophecies such as Micah 5:1-3 speaks of the first advent in verses 1-2, and then jumps to the second advent in verse 3. This also is why some Israelites missed the coming Messiah as a suffering servant before his coming as a king. Though they knew of Both prophecies, they had their timing off... perhaps they were thinking sequentially? 

So John may have wrote his Gospel sequentially as it was historical, But the prophecy was given to Him By the LORD. The LORD said to John "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;" (Rev 1:11),  And He said "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Rev 1:19)

 

What this means is that He is not writing history, which is already ordered in time and space, But is receiving prophecy from God who is not limited by Time and space. Any one of the prophecies were concurrent to John's time frame, (Ca. 90-95 Ad), or were to occur after that time. Think of the book of revelation this way, and this might help. Think of it as several different books that all conclude at the Day of the LORD. The first one tells the history of the church, The second gives us the seals, the third the Trumpets etc. Each one concludes and we jump back in time to start the next series. Now the Question here for this post is, Does revelation 12 Jump all the way back to the resurrection of Jesus, Or is this speaking of a different woman, The apostate church. The traditional view is that we jump back to the resurrection of Jesus.... I Say this Woman is the Laodicean Apostate church, and her offspring are the Laodicean overcomers, as we enter into a new dispensation where the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached again as Per Matthew 24:14. What is the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace unto salvation? The Gospel of the kingdom can only be preached when the Son of Man comes, It was preached by john the Baptist and Jesus, and Will be preached again before Jesus comes again. It is also the eternal Gospel spoken of in Rev 14:6.  

 

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, dhchristian said:

Perhaps you have missed John's parentheses.

I Will give you another quick example, lest you say rev 12:1-5 is just a parenthesis. Rev. 7:14 says of the great multitude that they came out of the "great tribulation". that means that the Great tribulation occurred before the sixth seal if Revelation is sequential, But from Matthew 24:21 we see that this happens after the Abomination of desolation. But as you know the beast and his war on the saints is not mentioned until revelation 13. So How can you have the Antichrist committing the A of D, before the antichrist is revealed or even mentioned?

[iamlamad]

40 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

This is easy, using your thinking. You say Rev 12:1-5 is telling us about Jesus Born of the Woman (Israel) and Herod as the Dragon. But what happens in Rev. 11? The two witnesses and the seventh trumpet. So If Rev. were sequential that means the 2 witnesses and the seventh trumpet occurred before Jesus rose from the dead, and also the seven churches were before then. LIKE I SAID, way to many contradictions. 

We also have the record of Prophecy from the past, You see the prophet is not writing what he thinks, but writing what he is shown. Prophecies such as Micah 5:1-3 speaks of the first advent in verses 1-2, and then jumps to the second advent in verse 3. This also is why some Israelites missed the coming Messiah as a suffering servant before his coming as a king. Though they knew of Both prophecies, they had their timing off... perhaps they were thinking sequentially? 

So John may have wrote his Gospel sequentially as it was historical, But the prophecy was given to Him By the LORD. The LORD said to John "What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;" (Rev 1:11),  And He said "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Rev 1:19)

 

What this means is that He is not writing history, which is already ordered in time and space, But is receiving prophecy from God who is not limited by Time and space. Any one of the prophecies were concurrent to John's time frame, (Ca. 90-95 Ad), or were to occur after that time. Think of the book of revelation this way, and this might help. Think of it as several different books that all conclude at the Day of the LORD. The first one tells the history of the church, The second gives us the seals, the third the Trumpets etc. Each one concludes and we jump back in time to start the next series. Now the Question here for this post is, Does revelation 12 Jump all the way back to the resurrection of Jesus, Or is this speaking of a different woman, The apostate church. The traditional view is that we jump back to the resurrection of Jesus.... I Say this Woman is the Laodicean Apostate church, and her offspring are the Laodicean overcomers, as we enter into a new dispensation where the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached again as Per Matthew 24:14. What is the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace unto salvation? The Gospel of the kingdom can only be preached when the Son of Man comes, It was preached by john the Baptist and Jesus, and Will be preached again before Jesus comes again. It is also the eternal Gospel spoken of in Rev 14:6. 

You say Rev 12:1-5 is telling us about Jesus Born of the Woman (Israel) and Herod as the Dragon    Yes, but written as a parenthesis with no part in Chronology.

But what happens in Rev. 11? The two witnesses and the seventh trumpet.  That is easy too.  Follow with me as I step through John's midpoint chronology:

11:1-2  The man of sin will enter Jerusalem  - perhaps just days before He will enter the temple in Jerusalem. His armies trample for 42 months.

11:3  The two witnesses suddenly show up. The come at this time because the man of sin just arrived in Jerusalem. They will testify for 1260 days.

11:4-13  Written as a parenthesis - a side journey down the last half of the week with the 2 witnesses.

11:14-15 the 7th trumpet sounds marking the exact midpoint of the week.

12:1-5 parenthesis

12:6 those in judea flee, a second or two after the abomination.

Look: there are 5 mentions of the 3.5 year period of time in Revelation, all in chapters 11-13. this proves these are midpoint chapters. Each is of an event that will start near the midpoint and to to the end of the week. The week ends at the 7th vial in chapter 16. The 70th week goes from chapters 8-16.

If Rev. were sequential that means the 2 witnesses and the seventh trumpet occurred before Jesus rose from the dead, and also the seven churches were before then.  Let's TRY and analyse this sentence: 

If Rev. were sequential   It Is sequential. Forget anything else

that means the 2 witnesses and the seventh trumpet occurred before Jesus rose from the dead,  Let's see: John wrote the book in 95 AD and Jesus rose from the dead around 32 AD. The two witnesses will not show up until some time in OUR future.  This statement then is a non-sequitur. I don't follow your reasoning at all.  Please explain this one too us.

When Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:

The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor      and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, Notice the jump of 2000 years between two words? Sorry, but John only writes like that in Revelation 12:1-5.

I disagree - sort of: God was showing John history in advance! It is written just like history, only it is still future.

Think of it as several different books that all conclude at the Day of the LORD.  Except that is simply not what John did. he started with his time and walked us straight through history to  far far future to us today.

Each one concludes and we jump back in time to start the next series.   Sorry, but pure human reasoning that does not fit the text. The seals come first: the 7th seal allows the book to be opened that revealed the trumpets. After the trumpets have sounded God gets His planet back and soon after releases the vials.

Does revelation 12 Jump all the way back to the resurrection of Jesus, Or is this speaking of a different woman,   No, it speaks of the BIRTH of Jesus. But this is a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. Chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter. The "woman" is Israel from which the Messiah came. Note, chapter 12 is about God introducing John to the Dragon. He is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. God chose to show John what the dragon DID when He, Jesus, was born.  The woman as Israel is PROVEN because Jesus said those in Judea would flee. In 12:6 it tells us the woman will flee. Make no mistake, the woman here is Israel - or a subset of Israel (those in Judea).

What is the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace unto salvation? They are both "the Gospel" but here the gospel is to warn people the real, physical kingdom of Christ is coming. John the Baptist and Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, but that was Christ in us, a spiritual kingdom. Paul preached the gospel of Grace. Did you notice that there is NOTHING about the death, burial and resurrection in the gospel the angels preach in Rev. 14? It seems we are agreed here.

[iamlamad]

50 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Will give you another quick example, lest you say rev 12:1-5 is just a parenthesis. Rev. 7:14 says of the great multitude that they came out of the "great tribulation". that means that the Great tribulation occurred before the sixth seal if Revelation is sequential, But from Matthew 24:21 we see that this happens after the Abomination of desolation. But as you know the beast and his war on the saints is not mentioned until revelation 13. So How can you have the Antichrist committing the A of D, before the antichrist is revealed or even mentioned?

lest you say rev 12:1-5 is just a parenthesis.  It IS a parenthesis. It jumps back to the birth of Christ.

Rev. 7:14 says of the great multitude that they came out of the "great tribulation". that means that the Great tribulation occurred before the sixth seal  many people imagine this but it is absolutely NOT TRUTH. In Chapter 7 John has not yet even started the week, much less arrived at the second half of the week. John is only telling us that at the time of the rapture, many people will be martyred just because they love Jesus - quite like it is today, only it is going to get worse.  Did you notice, those two words, GT, were not enough for Jesus to describe those days. He had to add more words. Did you notice, John mentioned these two words together, GT,  in chapter 2 writing to a church in John's time. My point? There have been days of GT over and over during the church age, but NONE will be so bad as the days Jesus spoke of that will be worse than them all.

So even here John is very chronological.  You have misunderstood John's use of GT in chapter 7. It is simply not talking about the days Jesus talked about. They are still into the future.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, he is not JESUS, absolutely. No, the CHILD is not JESUS, absolutely.

Herod has nothing to do with the Red Dragon of 7 heads, and 10 horns and a TAIL. Herod was not in heaven, absolutely, when the angel of the LORD appeared unto Joseph and said for Him to escape to Egypt with the child and his mother in fulfilment the prophecy of Hoseas, saying: Out of Egypt I called my Son. Hosea 11:v.1

The first 5 verses of chapter 12 IS NOT about the birth of Jesus. In the name and by the love of the Lord JESUS Christ I tell unto you: Be sure that no lie is of the truth. (1John 1:v.21)

Your "absolutely"  means nothing.   You are simply WRONG AGAIN. However, you are not here to learn so I am wasting my time.

Do you know what a parenthesis is? If not, look it up.

Here is what happened: God CHOSE to introduce John to the Dragon - that is what chapter 12 is all about: the dragon. In particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. But God CHOSE to show John what the Dragon DID when JEsus was born - how the Dragon tried to use King Herod to murder Jesus as a young child. You are mistaken. Wrong. In error.

[R. Hartono]

On 6/30/2019 at 10:56 AM, dhchristian said:

Many people imagine that Mystery Babylon - seen by John riding the Beast -  is false religion. They are mistaken. John tells us SHE is the city of Jerusalem

Hallo David, nice to see you in this site.

Are you saying that Mystery Babylon is the city of Jerusalem ?

Babylon will be found no more :

Rev 18:23.... Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

So Babylon cannot be Jerusalem where our Lord Jesus will rule in Millennium.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

So even here John is very chronological.  You have misunderstood John's use of GT in chapter 7. It is simply not talking about the days Jesus talked about. They are still into the future.

You are... what is the word... Stretching Logic here. I Use scripture to interpret scripture, not My Puny brain. Rev 2:22 I will throw you into great tribulation, 7:14 They came out of the Great tribulation. THEREFORE IF Rev. is sequential, the Great tribulation happens between chapter 2, and chapter 7. But Matthew 24 disagrees with this, so that means there is an error in the Word of God, Which is something I cannot accept. THEREFORE the error must be in our understanding. That error is that we are reading Revelation wrong. 

Look, I have commented several times with you here and each time you respond you contradict what you said before, or more accurately spin it. This is the attitude that is ever learning, but never able to arrive at the truth. The Socratic method gone post modern. Truth is something we arrive at hence the interaction, But if that is not your stated goal, and you are merely defending your traditionally held beliefs, then the interaction is a Moot point, as I said before. I Have been through all these debates before, with Pre tribbers, Post tribbers, Preterists etc. It is just a waste of time if you are unwilling to consider each other's views. You even Quoted Isaiah 61 in your defense, but this proves my point directly that prophecy never has been sequential. Another example is Daniel 9 is the proof text for the final week for Israel, But the events in Daniel 11 occur afterward sequentially, but speak of a time with Alexander the Great, before Christ. You easily read these passages as two distinct visions, But you put all of revelation as a single sequential vision, which it is not. There is some sequence to it, but they are multiple visions with overlap, and jumps back in time just like the rest of prophetic scripture.

[dhchristian]

Just now, R. Hartono said:

Are you saying that Mystery Babylon is the city of Jerusalem ?

No I was quoting IAMLAMAD, I Just do not know how to quote from two different comments. from a different page without erasing my comment so I had to copy and paste.

Good point though, that you made about Jerusalem cannot be Babylon, But it is a mystery, and I will keep it at that until the mystery is revealed. Some say it is rome, but you should know my opinion.

Edited July 1, 2019 by dhchristian
addition for clarification

[dhchristian]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What is the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace unto salvation?

Here is another contradiction:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (rev 11:15)

Here at the seventh trumpet Christ reigns. But we have yet to be introduced to the beast.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18) 

again the wrath is beginning here, and Judgement has begun, But then in chapter 14 the everlasting Gospel is preached. Why?

 

Again here, Notice that the rest of mankind repented not, so why preach the Gospel any longer.

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (Rev 9:20)

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, I am not wrong, but you evidently. The FIRST Beast is an Old Beast which John saw rising up out of the sea (waters). Waters in accord Scriptures are peoples, nations, multitudes and tongues. The is a Gentile Beast. This old Beast is the head of a strong and powerful religious and satanic system that exists since the beginning of the Church of the Lord during the fourth universal kingdom of Roman Empire, and it remained many times even after the Roman Empire be dissolved, yeah, DISSOLVED, EXCEPT, yeah, EXCEPT, this strong and powerful religious system which remained and remains until today. Now, in the present time, this Beast has with 7 heads and 10 horns, and upon his 10 horns 10 crowns, and upon his (7) heads the NAME of blasphemy. What's NAME? Now, now, Vicar, Son of God or Vicaryus Filii Dei, as this Beast is called since his old origin many times or centuries ago.

No, this interpretation of Scripture that you wrote is not true.  As soon as manifest himself the second Beast of Apocalypse like a lamb, but speaking as a Dragon, then both the Gentile Beast and the Jewish Beast will make a deal to build a religious and universal satanic Empire, that is the fifth and last universal Empire, i.e. the Antichrist's Empire, Catholicism and Judaism, iron with clay, in accord the revelation given to the prophet Daniel about the feet and 10 toes of the great image, in part of iron and in part part of clay, and each one of these two Beasts will reign for 42 months or 1260 days, the FIRST Beast, the Pope wedded with the great whore, the WOMAN that rides upon him, by the way, this Pope certainly will use the nickname of Paul VII, he will reign FIRST, and afterwards will reign the false messiah of the Jews, the Beast like a lamb, a false lamb, a false messiah, in fact he is the Red Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, who deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the FIRST Beast.     

For I testify unto every MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. Revelation 22:v.18

Let us be ready to receive our REWARD in accord the Word of God quoted in verse above. 

I agree with scripture correctly understood. I disagree with almost everything you write. Hint!