Woman of Revelation 12

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Here is another contradiction:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (rev 11:15)

Here at the seventh trumpet Christ reigns. But we have yet to be introduced to the beast.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18) 

again the wrath is beginning here, and Judgement has begun, But then in chapter 14 the everlasting Gospel is preached. Why?

 

Again here, Notice that the rest of mankind repented not, so why preach the Gospel any longer.

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (Rev 9:20)

No contradiction: God has spoken that Satan will get 42 months of authority for the Beast. Although the world will then belong to Jesus, He is GOING to give the Antichrist Beast his 42 months. God is not a man that He should lie.

Who is really "reigning?" One who gives authority - or one who receives authority?

Revelation 18 is a prophecy given out by the 24 elders. All those who are destroying earth are NOT destroyed here. It is prophecy of FUTURE events, from chapter 12 to chapter 19. Note carefully all the dead are NOT judged here at the midpoint of the week but AFTER the week.

No, the wrath begins at first mention of the wrath, which is at the 6th seal.  You should take note that most of John's verbs are Greek Aorist tense verbs that show no timing information at all. It is impossible to translate these verbs accurately into English for ALL English verbs show timing.  John tells us God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. (Some people say the 7th)

God has GREAT Mercy so will continue to for a while to give more opportunities. Take note that many people will survive the week to become saints in the millennial reign of Christ in natural bodies that can reproduce.

[simplejeff]

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Although the world will then belong to Jesus

what about "a lie" ?  < "God is not a man that He could lie" >

who is given power over the world (society,  men,  even over the lives of believers, to behead them) ?  

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

You are... what is the word... Stretching Logic here. I Use scripture to interpret scripture, not My Puny brain. Rev 2:22 I will throw you into great tribulation, 7:14 They came out of the Great tribulation. THEREFORE IF Rev. is sequential, the Great tribulation happens between chapter 2, and chapter 7. But Matthew 24 disagrees with this, so that means there is an error in the Word of God, Which is something I cannot accept. THEREFORE the error must be in our understanding. That error is that we are reading Revelation wrong. 

Look, I have commented several times with you here and each time you respond you contradict what you said before, or more accurately spin it. This is the attitude that is ever learning, but never able to arrive at the truth. The Socratic method gone post modern. Truth is something we arrive at hence the interaction, But if that is not your stated goal, and you are merely defending your traditionally held beliefs, then the interaction is a Moot point, as I said before. I Have been through all these debates before, with Pre tribbers, Post tribbers, Preterists etc. It is just a waste of time if you are unwilling to consider each other's views. You even Quoted Isaiah 61 in your defense, but this proves my point directly that prophecy never has been sequential. Another example is Daniel 9 is the proof text for the final week for Israel, But the events in Daniel 11 occur afterward sequentially, but speak of a time with Alexander the Great, before Christ. You easily read these passages as two distinct visions, But you put all of revelation as a single sequential vision, which it is not. There is some sequence to it, but they are multiple visions with overlap, and jumps back in time just like the rest of prophetic scripture.

Was God's plan to keep Jezebel alive for 2000 years so He could THEN throw her into GT? I think not. He can create GT any time He chooses.  ANY time saints are being put to death it is GT for THEM: they cannot be killed twice. But only ONCE will GT be worse than anything before of anything after.  These are Jesus' own words. Therefore GT can exist at other times, but won't be as bad.

They came out of the Great tribulation. THEREFORE IF Rev. is sequential, the Great tribulation happens between chapter 2, and chapter 7.   No. Wrong. "THE GT" happens only once and it will not begin until after the warning God gives in Rev. 14. This is way past the midpoint of the week. Chapter 7 is before the week begins. It seems in the mind of God, when saints are being martyred (like today) it is GT in His mind. But it is NOT "THE GT" Jesus spoke of.  Again I refer you to Jezebel. She was real and lived in John's time.

each time you respond you contradict what you said before, or more accurately spin it  If you imagine I am spinning, that choose a verse and prove I am spinning it. The truth is, many writers here have wild imaginations of some of these verses that are simply impossible according to the Scripture.  For example, when John wrote "No man was found worthy" they insist Jesus was found worthy - as if John was lying!  They totally ignore TIME.  I doubt seriously if I contradict myself. If you find such a contradiction, show everyone. I will repent. My guess is though, you only thought I did.  So what if Isaiah was not sequential? Does that prove Revelation is not? NO OTHER PROPHET received such a vision. I am convinced it was one long vision from chapter 4 to the end. I don't think God was trying to confuse us. It was a revealing, not a confusing. Anyway, if it makes perfect sense AS WRITTEN, why try to change it? My Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

The Socratic method gone post modern.   In fact, I quote Him over and over on these threads: "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK they know, when in fact, they don't.

Truth is something we arrive at hence the interaction  What if Jesus just TOLD you HIS intent in one verse. Would you then ignore what HE said and begin to imagine what someone else said on a thread could be truth instead? I am not dogmatic on many scriptures. But on scriptures Jesus has taught me, I am dogmatic: I will never let go of HIS words to replace them with someone else's.  Case in Point: Jesus spent months teaching me HIS intent in chapters 4 & 5. Why so long? Because I was SLOW. He asked me three questions that I could not answer for weeks of intense study.  Finally He had mercy on my slow brain and sent me to chapter 12 to find the answer to three questions from chapters 4 & 5! if you get me into chapter 11, I am anything but dogmatic. The 5 fallen? I can only guess.

Daniel is one book DEFINITELY not sequential! He received several visions at different times in His life. We cannot disprove Revelation's chronology from Daniel. However, Daniel 11 - 12 IS perfect in chronology.

they are multiple visions with overlap, and jumps back in time  You have to PROVE this with scripture! Just a bold statement is what many here do. I will add this, no one so far has EVER proved what you just said with scripture correctly understood.

When God first began to teach me this book, He sent me first to find the exact midpoint "clearly marked."
Next, to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

Then He taught me chapters 4 & 5 and 12.  I only wish it was more - but I am still alive and learning!

[iamlamad]

23 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

what about "a lie" ?  < "God is not a man that He could lie" >

who is given power over the world (society,  men,  even over the lives of believers, to behead them) ?  

God does not lie! What He says, He will DO. He promised the Beast 42 months and the Beast will surely have that 42 months.

Of course it will be the Beast who will enforce the mark and image and probably his armies that will do the beheading. But this all is under the authority of Jesus Christ who GAVE the Beast 42 months of authority.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

God has spoken that Satan will get 42 months of authority for the Beast. Although the world will then belong to Jesus, He is GOING to give the Antichrist Beast his 42 months.

More Spin. Yes ultimately it is God that allows evil to exist, But the beast of revelation gets his authority from the dragon, and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Rev 13:2)

remember, right now, Satan is the god of this world. (2 cor. 4:4) Because of man's sin he holds this authority.

Just now, iamlamad said:

No, the wrath begins at first mention of the wrath, which is at the 6th seal.  You should take note that most of John's verbs are Greek Aorist tense verbs that show no timing information at all. It is impossible to translate these verbs accurately into English for ALL English verbs show timing.  John tells us God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. (Some people say the 7th)

I Agree whole heartedly that the Greek verbs show no timing, hence the point of this debate. I agree the wrath of God is spoken of at the sixth to seventh seal. But then the book of the trumpets begins, and jumps back a bit. Now notice how the sun is darkened during the fifth trumpet, similar to how it is darkened during the sixth seal. Same event? Now notice the sixth trumpet while have you at rev. 9 Four angels (fallen angels) bound at the River Euphrates, and compare this to the Sixth vial (rev. 16:12) where river Euphrates is dried up.... If something is bound up below river, would the river not need to be dried up to release them? You see, when you start reading Revelation this way All of a sudden you start to have triangulation... (a maritime term, where if you know where two fixed points are you can find where you are.) Now John as a Fishermen would have understood triangulation. And as you begin to see this, then you will start to see the real sequence of events. 

There are some people (Good Christians) who see the rapture as happening in Rev. 4. There are others, (good Christians such as yourself) who see it happening at the sixth seal. There are good Christians who see the Rapture at the last trump, and concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses Such as myself. There are some, Good Christians who see the rapture in revelation 14 with the Gatherings etc. This way of looking at revelation agrees with all of these views. They are all right to an extent, where they are wrong is that they fight amongst each other because they read revelation wrongly.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

they are multiple visions with overlap, and jumps back in time  You have to PROVE this with scripture! Just a bold statement is what many here do. I will add this, no one so far has EVER proved what you just said with scripture correctly understood.

When God first began to teach me this book, He sent me first to find the exact midpoint "clearly marked."
Next, to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

Then He taught me chapters 4 & 5 and 12.  I only wish it was more - but I am still alive and learning!

I Hope my previous comment explains this. This is the Beauty and blessing of the book of Revelation, that we do not know. Look, I believed revelation unfolded exactly as you do, until I saw the flaws in that understanding, and the contradictions therein, Then he showed me the rapture in multiple places and the similarity of the seventh seal trumpet and vial, thus making them all one event described from a different perspective.

[simplejeff]

30 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

More Spin.

Well observed, good appraisal, yes.

Spin being most and quite regular (considered "normal") on all internet and media news and forums, of course.

 

[simplejeff]

32 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

They are all right to an extent, where they are wrong is that they fight amongst each other because they read revelation wrongly.

Perhaps so,  but not necessarily so.   It would be extremely surprising if they are "all" right to an extent,

since as written throughout Scripture it is just barely the righteous are saved,  and this is "few",  not many, and not all.

[simplejeff]

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Again here, Notice that the rest of mankind repented not, so why preach the Gospel any longer.

Do as God Says.   Noah preached 100 years,  though no one repented of their great sin in that time. 

Only seven family members went with Noah into the ark and were saved from the worldwide flood that destroyed all men on earth.

A disciple, also, asked Jesus while overlooking a town they or he was headed to "how many there will be saved, few or many ? " .....   Jesus rebuked? him "That's not your concern - go and do what the Father has told you to do" (without regard or concern of how many (if any) would be saved ) .....

[dhchristian]

49 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Perhaps so,  but not necessarily so.   It would be extremely surprising if they are "all" right to an extent,

since as written throughout Scripture it is just barely the righteous are saved,  and this is "few",  not many, and not all.

Jeff, I believe in the concept that "in essentials unity in non essentials liberty". As such, "When the rapture occurs" is a non essential. It may be more prudent to hold one view or the other, But if you disagree with mine, but we are still united on the essentials, we are Brothers or sister in Christ. I see WAY too many pre tribbers condemning those who do not think the rapture is pre trib, and vice versa to eternal damnation Just for this doctrine. What they are in fact doing is exposing the spiritual pride.

Let's compare some of those rapture scriptures in the book of revelation.

Rev 4:1, John ascends to heaven. Is this the rapture? comes after the church ages, and the church no longer mentioned in Revelation.

Rev 7:9ff The great multitude in heaven, are said to have come out of the great tribulation. Is this the rapture, between the sixth and seventh seal?

Rev 10:7,11:12 The mystery fulfilled, the two witnesses are resurrected and told to come up Hither.  This occurs between the sixth and seventh trump. Is this the rapture?

Rev 12:5 Speaks of the child being caught up to heaven. Is this the rapture?

Rev 14:14 You have the two angels reaping, The first one gathers to heaven the second one gathers for the winepress of the wrath of God. This occurs after the Mark of the beast. Is this the Rapture?

Rev 16:15 Jesus says he comes as a thief, and "blessed is he that watcheth". this occurs between the sixth and seventh vial. Is this the rapture?

Rev 19:7ff speaks of the Wedding of the Lamb to the Bride. This occurs after the Judgement of the Whore. And is followed by Jesus on the White Horse leading the saints to the final battle. Is this the rapture?

SEVEN TIMES, Rapture Language used throughout Revelation, Almost like there are seven different visions, and they all have the same basic outline. Plagues and tribulation, followed by separation and  rescue and redemption of the righteous, followed by the wrath of God. So One Believer is seeing one thing, and another something else and this is where they get their rapture timing from, so they are right to a certain extent, but do not have the entire picture understood.  

 

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by dhchristian