Woman of Revelation 12

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, dhchristian said:

As I said, the first part of my ministry is "can the teacher be taught". You are beyond that point now, for you have exhibited Humility In The Spirit. I Ask You to study the concept of being meek, as you will find a blessing in this, and this will help you in being a fruitful teacher. The Word for meek in the Greek is Prays kind of fits nicely with the concept, as in prayer and praise is when we are meek. Here is what Strong's says about this, I found this to be a blessing in understanding meekness, and How this relates to being a teacher. in this you will find what it is to be a saint. I Know you do not agree with this concept that differentiates the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus, But this is what standing in the gap entails.

 

"mildness of disposition, gentleness of spirit, meekness

Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23)."

 

Not by Power or by might, But by my Spirit.....(Zech 4:6)

He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength. (Isa 40:29)

 

The church is in dire need of Godly teachers such as yourself. I 

Thanks. I take teaching and what I teach VERY seriously; I am to be held to a higher standard.

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks. I take teaching and what I teach VERY seriously; I am to be held to a higher standard.

Yes, I Know. 

Thank You for the interaction, The LORD showed me something through it that I had not seen before, And that is Truly a blessing. I will be departing on good terms.

Thanks R Hartono, The LORD used this brief encounter as a blessing. To Be honest I thought it was going to be far briefer, But the Holy Ghost showed up. 

The words written here are meant as Blessing to all who read them. The Cross is always open for service, Many a Man and woman has gone there in humility and repentance. It is at the cross the chains fall off, and the burdens are laid down. Submitting to Jesus is the greatest form of liberation there is. Luke 4:18

 

 

[R. Hartono]

On 7/4/2019 at 5:32 PM, dhchristian said:

the Bride

David,

If the Manchild is the bride gets raptured to heaven,  how could the dragon stand by to devour her ? because nobody knows the day and hour of the rapture not even the Son.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Yes, I Know. 

Thank You for the interaction, The LORD showed me something through it that I had not seen before, And that is Truly a blessing. I will be departing on good terms.

Thanks R Hartono, The LORD used this brief encounter as a blessing. To Be honest I thought it was going to be far briefer, But the Holy Ghost showed up. 

The words written here are meant as Blessing to all who read them. The Cross is always open for service, Many a Man and woman has gone there in humility and repentance. It is at the cross the chains fall off, and the burdens are laid down. Submitting to Jesus is the greatest form of liberation there is. Luke 4:18

Depart (if you must) but leave blessed!

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

David,

If the Manchild is the bride gets raptured to heaven,  how could the dragon stand by to devour her ? because nobody knows the day and hour of the rapture not even the Son.

The Man Child is not the Bride. The Man child and the offspring of the Woman are the saints. They stand in the gap for the bride. Their deeds are the fine linen of the bride (Rev. 19:8). Paul a saint did not equate himself with the bride. ( 2 Cor 11:2).

Both myself and Iamlamad believe that Rev 12:1-5 is a jump back or a parenthesis in the book of revelation. We disagree how far back that Jump is. He says the woman is Israel, and the Manchild is Jesus, I say the Woman is the church, and the Manchild are the overcoming saints. 

For me, Revelation consists of seven scrolls if you will, The scroll of the trumpets ends at Rev. 11:19, The scroll of the characters begins at 12:1, and continues through the end of chapter 14. Each scroll has overlap, each ends at a certain day, the day of the LORD, Some go back further in time, others to just shortly before the last one. These are the seven thunders unsealed (if I might be so bold to say). This can only fully be grasped by the teaching of the Holy Ghost, for Human understanding is  insufficient, in that it is limited by time and space. For example, The human mind sees things like the sun and moon darkening and explains these supernatural events as natural events such as eclipses. I Have heard all kinds of theories such as the Locusts are apache helicopters, and the Bottomless pit is the Hollow Earth, and the beast is a President of the U.S.A.... That is because that is the rational human mind trying to make sense of the imagery therein. But if you remove time and space(material explanations) and you start to see the overlap, then the overlap adds to the understanding of each event, Gives it a depth of understanding. Instead of saying why the fifth seal and rev. 12 cannot go hand in hand, you will start to see that they add dimension and depth to each other, and also you will see why the church is not mentioned after Rev. 3. You will see then why the A of D is the first event of the final week, and not the middle of the week, and that this is a time of desolations that lasts 3.5 years and is synonymous with the Great tribulation.  There is no need to conjure up concepts such as "tribulation saints," or saying the church age is a great tribulation of sorts different from the final week great tribulation. There is a great Beauty in revelation that I cannot even begin to describe when you start to explore it this way, But your mind also will interfere with this admiration, because the Mind is where doubt is born, and Our understanding wants to contain the whole, rather than letting the whole be and letting our mind enter into the whole.

It is like a work of art. The mind can comprehend the subject, and the brushstrokes, But Beauty is not just grasped by the mind, there is passion, emotion, Love, and grandeur, all of which the mind cannot grasp or rationalize. Proverbs 3:5-6 applies here. So I can say that revelation consists of seven scrolls, but even this is a mental construct used to contain revelation.

As an example, the scroll of the seals ends at rev. 8:5, But in 8:3 we see the seven angels with the seven trumpets. The Human mind limited by time and space makes the assumption that the trumpets follow the seventh seal, and upon reading that passage this makes sense logically. But in view of the whole, this forces you to add things to the book that are not there, such as two great tribulations, such as has been said here.

I Do not claim to know everything there is to know, But I do know that this is the blessing of studying revelation, It puts your faith in your mind into perspective with omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence of Almighty God. As Ezekiel said, when asked if these dry bones can live he did not say yes or no, he said "LORD thou knowest", thus leaving the possibility for God to reveal to Him How they would live. That is where our heart needs to be.  

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Depart (if you must) but leave blessed!

I Knew this was only a short term thing here. 

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1 Cor 3;7-8)

 

[Spock]

On 10/9/2018 at 11:56 PM, R. Hartono said:

If we look into history, Israel was depicted in Rev 12 exactly as Joseph's dream which caused him being sold by his brothers to Egypt.

Revelation Chapter 12 is actually describing TWO EVENTS separated by a very long time interval (+/- 2000 years).

IT DESCRIBES TWO EFFORTS OF MURDER BY THE DRAGON in separated times :

The first effort was to try to kill the CHILD, not the woman and the dragon was STILL ALLOWED IN HEAVEN.

Rev 12:4 ..... the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to DEVOUR HER CHILD as soon  as it was born.

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The woman in pain to deliver speaks about the Jews under the persecution of the Roman Empire from whom Jesus was born.

And the child speaks about the infant Jesus whom Herod tried to kill (which was actually the dragon's idea).

MANY PEOPLE SAY THIS SPEAKS ABOUT THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, NO WAY THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED WHILE THE DRAGON  IS STILL ALLOWED IN HEAVEN. ALTHOUGH ITS RIGHTS TO HEAVEN HAS BEEN CAST OUT TO THE EARTH WITH THE THIRD PART OF THE STARS.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His Throne.

We can see that the child was taken to His Throne, who was this child taken to His Throne ? Jesus was seen at the right hand of God by Steven

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God, so He was Jesus on the Throne.

While the raptured church (the great multitude) is found IN FRONT OF the Throne, not on the Throne:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE the throne, and BEFORE THE LAMB.

Look ! the word MANCHILD was written two times by John (verse 5 and 13), Does the church of God consist of MAN only ? No, this is not about the church.

Further : the dragon knew this Manchild was about to be delivered thats why he prepared to kill Him, so this is not about the rapture of the church because nobody knows the hour and day of the rapture.

If this Manchild speaks about the rapture of the church why would the dragon try to devour Him at the time of Rapture ? Thats not possible because Jesus will send His angels to gather the saints, Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds,...

CONCLUSION : THE CHILD WAS JESUS WHO WAS BORN DURING ROMAN PERSECUTION OF THE JEWS, THE DRAGON TRIED TO KILL HIM AS SOON AS HE WAS BORN BUT FAILED AND HE WAS RAISED FROM DEATH AND TAKEN TO HEAVEN TO GOD'S THRONE 2000 YEARS AGO.

 

THE SECOND ATTEMPT IS TO KILL THE WOMAN AND WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE DRAGON HAS BEEN CAST OUT IN THE END OF TIMES.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,....(THE DRAGON CAST OUT IN THE END OF TIMES)

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

THIS SECOND ATTEMPT TO KILL THE WOMAN WILL HAPPEN AT THE AOD WHEN ANTICHRIST ENTER THE TEMPLE OF GOD AND DECLARE HIMSELF AS GOD, AS HAS BEEN WARNED BY JESUS THAT THE JEWS MUST MAKE AN EXODUS OUT OF ISRAEL, BECAUSE THE DEVIL HATE THE JEWS SINCE THE ANCIENT TIMES AND WANTED TO KILL THEM ALL.

Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

ALL THE JEWS WILL GATHER AND CONFUSED AND SHOCKED, THEY WILL WATCH WITH FEAR AS THAT "MIGHTY MESSIAH WHO LEAD THE WORLD" DECLARES HIMSELF AS GOD, YES THEY WILL GATHER AND DECIDE TO RUN AS THEY REMEMBER THE WARNING OF PROPHET DANIEL.

WILL GOD LET THE ISRAELITES DIE ? NO GOD WILL GIVE THEM TWO WINGS OF GREAT EAGLE LIKE HE DID WHEN GOD TOOK THEM OUT OF EGYPT :

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle

ANTICHRIST WILL SEND HIS ARMY TO CHASE AND KILL THEM LIKE PHARAOH SENT HIS ARMY TO CAPTURE THE JEWS AT THE RED SEA, BUT THE EARTH WILL HELP THE JEWS :

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

WHO ARE THE REMNANT OF HER SEED :

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD = TORAH/JUDAISM

TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST : THE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE

So the REMNANTS are the Jews who believed in Judaism but have repented and accept Jesus Christ in other parts of the world who didnt join the EXODUS.

This could also refer the 144000 sealed Jews. The 144000 are not spiritual Jews or christians because spiritual Jews/christians dont belong to any tribe.
 

WHAT IS THE 1260 DAYS IN THE WILDERNESS SPEAKS ABOUT ?

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

HISTORY SHOWS THAT EVER SINCE THE RCC RECEIVED THE JUSTINIAN DECREE THEY HAVE RULED EUROPE for +/- 1260 YEARS LIKE KINGS AND PERSECUTE THE PEOPLE WHO REFUSED TO CONVERT TO CATHOLIC CHURCH.

THE JUSTINIAN DECREE WAS IMPLEMENTED ON YEAR 538 AD AND THE RCC REIGN WITH ABSOLUTE POWER UNTIL 1798 WHEN NAPOLEON SENT GENERAL BERTHIER WITH HIS ARMY TO DEFEAT AND ARREST POPE, THUS ENDING THE 1260 YEARS OF ABSOLUTE DICTATORSHIP. MANY JEWS WHO REFUSED TO CONVERT HAVE BEEN PERSECUTED, THEIR PROPERTY AND WEALTH CONFISCATED BY THE CHURCH.

This is the  JUSTINIAN DECREE :
TITLE 1.

CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NO ONE
SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.

       1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.

  We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.

   (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as DEMENTED and INSANE, We order that they shall bear the infamy of HERESY; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

Apostle John has prophesied the long period of 1260 days of persecution of the Jews and the church, as has been honestly admitted by Pope John Paul II in the above link.

 

 

Greetings brother RH,

Disclaimer: I just started reading this thread so at this moment I am only responding to the OP, no one else. I’m sure what I have to say has been said by someone because I see over 200 posts here. 

Here goes:

Great great job brother. I have spent this past month or two extensively looking into Rev 12 because of that sign in the Heaven so many watchers were talking about regarding 9/23/17. I never thought much of it but when that many watchers are talking about it....well, you at least have to listen. 

i now have come to this conclusion....you are right, they are wrong. I don’t think that sign in Heaven , if there even was one, is worth talking about. It has been almost two years and what can anyone say about it? Nothing.....most thought the rapture was then and then they backtracked or left the house with egg on face.

The woman of Rev 12 is absolutely Israel. Read Genesis and Joseph for proof. The woman is not Mary or church.

The man child is Jesus...not church. Church was not taken to the throne like you said. Initially I too got caught up with the Greek word harpazo (snatched up) and did not think this applied to Jesus....but maybe after Jesus waved goodbye to his friends on the way up, he then was SNATCHED. I really don’t know....that verb did trouble me but I do not believe the church will be brought up to the throne at the rapture.  The great multitude in Rev 7 is  BEFORE the throne but I don’t believe they are the raptured church. It seems to fit those tribulation martyrs better. 

I agree the remnant of the woman are faithful Mosaic Law Orthodox Jews and or Messianic Jews. 

Now, the part that I don’t subscribe to is your 1260 commentary. I think the 1260 days is just that.....the Jews fled into the wilderness and were protected for......drum roll please......1260 days which happens to be 3.5 years, the time of the GT immediately after the abomination.  

Your 1260 years sounds fancy but irrelevant here. These fleeing Jews will be protected for 1260 days just like God protected Jews when Pharaoh chased them.  See Isaiah 26:20-27:1 for more details. 

Anyhow, I gave you a WORTHY rating because your post (minus the 1260 years) In my opinion is absolutely brilliant and I believe so right on the money!

thank you and blessings going your way,

spock

[Spock]

7 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

First, the Author of Revelation is God, understand? It seems that the religious teachers or thelogians know not that the former sealed book of Revelation was with God the Father, and He gave it to JESUS when He ascended to heaven and sat at His right hand just in the beginning of the fifth Day or fifth millennium, understand?  An interesting detail is that the Word who is God the Father was still working at that time, you know? 

We must know that the Lord JESUS revealed its content only about 70 years after His ascension or around the year 100 AC, when the seven churches were already implanted or established, and since the beginning the Lord was concerned or let us say, worried with the Churches, and also in REVEALING the spiritual state of the angels and members of the Churches which began to deteriorate spiritually at that time, as an example and as an analogy to REVEAL the very poor spiritual state of the Churches today, which are infested with apostasies and deceptions. 

On the other hand, it is interesting to note that the Church of Rome is not part of the Churches of the Lord. The pseudo Christian Church in Rome - now the Great Whore - was completely dominated by the spirit of the Devil in the year 100 AC or AD, and had already committed great blasphemies and sacrileges by electing the Apostle Peter as the first Pope. 

And in the first 100 years the Church or Rome had already elected 5 Popes including the blasphemy and satanic election of Peter as the first Pope.   In the year 100 the Pope was called Evaristus, the other 4 Popes elected by the Great Whore before Evaristus  were Clemens, and Anacletus, and Linus, and the satanic election as was the first Pope - Petrus, the Apostle - as I have already commented above. The Papacy and the WOMAN - the Great Whore - which rides upon him - the Roman Catholic Church - were reigning political and religiously in the world within the Roman Empire.

Revelation 1:v.1 says: " The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass. "   Therefore, the things witten in Revelation should come in time future, so the book of Revelation has nothing to do with any kind of happenings happened before the year 100AC, for example the birth of JESUS as many have posted it here in this Christian forum erroneously, worse, contradicting the own words of the LORD.

Around the year 100AC, John was caught on the Lord's Day, this event has nothing to do with past time but future, that is the seventh and last Day or seventh and last Millennium, and he heard behind him a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying:  Write the things which thou has seen (Revelation 1:v.4-7) , and the things which are (Revelation chapters 2and 3) , and the things which shall be hereafter as they are 2, written in Revelation chapters 4 to 22 when John was caught by the second time from the Lord's Day - from the seventh and last Day or seventh and last Millennium -  to the third heaven-Rev.4:v.1.  

The woman in Revelation 12:v. 1 is not Israel absolutely, and the MAN child is not JESUS, absolutely.  The WOMAN is the Church of JESUS - His body here in the earth - and the MAN child is he about whom JESUS testified in John 16:v.12-16. Check it.  Verily, the MAN child is not JESUS. but JESUS testified about him.

Greetings my brother,

You might be right but I don’t think so and here is why....

1. I don’t believe you can absolutely say that chapter 1 is past tense, chapters 2-3 are present tense, and chapter 4-on HAS TO BE DESCRIBING ONLY AND ALL FUTURE EVENTS....THIS EXCLUSIVELY FUTURE TENSE. 

2. Look at this passage I am pasting from Rev 12 below. Notice how there are two, not one, casting down to Earth of Satan and his angels. When do you think these two happened?  We know the second one, verse 9, is during the 70th week of Daniel. What about the first casting down in verse 4? When did that happen? Please don’t say they are the same because they are not. So when did this first casting down with the one third angels take place? In the Past, present or future?  The answer to that question will free you up brother to see chapter 12 more logically.

3Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as He was born.

5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.a And her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

7Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

cheers,

spock

[R. Hartono]

On 7/20/2019 at 10:06 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

2) What are the 7 heads of Satan, the Red Dragon?  And his 10 horns? Who are them?

If you read Rev 17 the whore of Babylon is actually the Fake Christianity that sits on many waters (nations).

The 7 heads have one body which shows they came from the same institution who rule one after another.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten ^ahorns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I hv told you who is this beast but you would not believe it either.

[R. Hartono]

8 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 The sixth king appeared at the exact moment in which the prophetic message of Revelation begins and must be fulfilled, and this king was enthroned in 1963 and reigned until 1978 within the religious "institution that is actually the Fake Christianity", as you have said wisely.

Thats very revealing Bro.

But the 7th king has already appeared for a short time and has already been replaced by the 8th.

The 5th king was mysteriously dead within 33 days after his statement that the smoke of satan has entered their institution so the total HEAD OF THE BEAST remain SEVEN. Because one was made "exterminated" and so not included.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and IS OF THE SEVEN,

There will appear only 4 Beasts of Daniel and the final beast remain the same Roman.

THE DESCRIPTION OF THE BEAST OF REV 13 HAS CONFINED THE 4 BEASTS OF DANIEL, THE SAME 4TH BEAST OF ROME.   

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his ^apower, and his seat, and great authority.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by R. Hartono