Woman of Revelation 12

[Montana Marv]

I see a problem of many.  Who are True Israel? 

Rev 20:9 - They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves, but fire came down and devoured them (those who followed Satan).  Those in this camp of God, are they part of True Israel, Post Mill??  Those within the highway from Egypt to Assyria and maybe more. (Isa 19:23)  Those saints before Abraham, are they part of True Israel??  The Believing Church, are they part of True Israel, by the Faith of Abraham?? The 1/3 brought out of the fire of Zech 13:8,9, are they part of True Israel, Pre Mill??  Daniel 12:13 - as for you (Daniel), go your way till the end.  You will rest, then at the end of those days you will rise up to receive your allotted inheritance. Pre Mill..  Is Daniel and those like him, part of True Israel??

As we see only Daniel's people which are of True Israel are to receive their allotted inheritance.  The Land promised to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

The Bride does not receive this inheritance of Land, which is given to those True Israel of Israel.  There are very many different groups or subgroups which may be included in True Israel.  But God's Chosen Nation is Israel.  The Bride (not Israel) is composed of members of many nations, languages, and tribes; Yet is considered as ONE in Christ.  The only ones Indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Those who began their journey since Pentecost. So our purpose is different from all the other groups included in True Israel.

You figure this out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Apostolic endtime]

On 1/3/2019 at 1:53 AM, nobleseed said:

the woman is a queen of heaven, the child is a new savoir and king still to be born, Jesus talks about him in rev 2 and 3, and 19 is when this king conquers the beast. he has a name known only to him who has it, i know most of u cant see past Jesus and think everything is about him but there are new things coming and prophesies yet to be fulfilled.

Read one verse further where it says he had a name that only he knew. The next verse says his name is the Word of God. Who is the Word? Jesus! In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word river itself in flesh and dwelt among us. 

There is no God other than Jesus and there won't be another after him

[iamlamad]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:20 AM, Revelation Man said:

You have most everything right, but you miss the thrust of the Prophecy. In Rev. 4:1 we are told we will now see things that are HEREAFTER. Let that sink in, everything after Rev. 4:1 is after the Raptured Church. Thus when we are given Rev. 12:1-5 it has nothing to do with the HEREAFTER because it's about Satan, Jesus and Israel, but we are given a CODE to understand the Prophecy by, John couldn't be saying the World was going to be destroyed, Rome wouldn't like that, so Jesus used Babylon as CODE for the World, Rome didn't want to hear about Israel overcoming so John used THE WOMAN. It's all coded messages.  The Prophec is ALL about the End Times and Israel fleeing Judea, it has nothing to do with Jesus birth and ascension. We are given the code to solve the End Time Prophecy via the Jesus story of birth, death and resurrection, and the Dragon. 

It has nothing to do with the Rapture, the Rapture happens before the 70th week, this prophecy happens in the middle of the 70th Week. 

The Multitude in Rev. 7:9-17 is the RAPTURED CHURCH that is Raptured before the 70th week, they (WE) came out of the Church Age TRIBULATION !!

The Remnant of HER (Israel's) SEED (Jesus) are the Gentile people who gave their lives to Christ AFTER the Rapture, thus they are a REMNANT (Small part of something that is left behind) who have the testimony of Jesus. This can't be about the Jews, they are PROTECTED and thus Satan gets angry, so he then goes after the REMNANT of the Woman's SEED..............The Church on Earth............not the Church in Heaven (of course). 

The rapture in Rev. 4:1 is myth. This is now very old rhetoric.  A beginning reader could tell us that was JOHN caught up, and that around 95 AD. (The rapture is still future to us.)  The truth is, when John is called up (95 AD) He is shown a vision of the PAST - HIS past - a time while Jesus was still on earth. This is proven by scripture: Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit THERE in chapter 4 but SENT DOWN in chapter 5, and NO MAN FOUND in that first search for one worthy to open the book, but JESUS found later, after He had risen from the dead. Then Jesus was seen ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down - ALL events from John's past in 95 AD. 

All this to show us that Jesus got the book and began opening seals as soon as He ascended: around 32 AD. 

As we read through the seals, the first seal we come to that is future is seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of His wrath.  Seal 5 is the church age martyrs, and they are told they will have to wait for the very last one before judgement comes: the 6th seal. 

The church therefore has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal, and martyrs are being killed and added to their total day after day. God knows the final number.

Edited August 11, 2020 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The rapture in Rev. 4:1 is myth. This is now very old rhetoric.

The Seals being 2000 years old is a myth believed by .0000001 percent of the world. The Rev. 4:1 passage is a Vision that shows John at WHAT TIME he will be Raptured, after the Rev. 2 and 3 Church Age Period AND BEFORE we see the Church in Heaven via the Rev. 4 and 5 chapters, where we see the PROMISED GIFTS to the over-comers via the 24 Elders, who sit on THRONES, have White Robes on and Crowns of Gold. And in Rev. 5:9 we see they are the REDEEMED from all Nations. This of course happens BEFORE your erroneous idea of the Seals already being opened so of course it ca't be "FACTUAL"  to you, even though it is factual. I know every point you are going to make before you make it and before I read it, and why you have to cling to certain erroneous ideas. 

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

A beginning reader could tell us that was JOHN caught up, and that around 95 AD. (The rapture is still future to us.)

No Sin flesh can enter heaven. John was shown a Vision, he was not "CAUGHT UP" to Heaven. A beginning reader would understand that no SIN FLESH can ever enter Heaven.

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, when John is called up (95 AD) He is shown a vision of the PAST - HIS past - a time while Jesus was still on earth. This is proven by scripture: Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit THERE in chapter 4 but SENT DOWN in chapter 5, and NO MAN FOUND in that first search for one worthy to open the book, but JESUS found later, after He had risen from the dead. Then Jesus was seen ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down - ALL events from John's past in 95 AD. 

I have debunked all these timing errors before, yet you persist. If you want to believe some far out idea be my guess, but literally NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD BUYS IT. You are on your own train sir.

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

All this to show us that Jesus got the book and began opening seals as soon as He ascended: around 32 AD. 

As we read through the seals, the first seal we come to that is future is seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of His wrath.  Seal 5 is the church age martyrs, and they are told they will have to wait for the very last one before judgement comes: the 6th seal. 

The church therefore has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal, and martyrs are being killed and added to their total day after day. God knows the final number.

SURE....................OK...............We really buy this. NOT.

[iamlamad]

When Jesus was teaching me chapters 4 & 5, and I was stuck, not able to answer His three questions, He sent me to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, He spoke:  “This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

You can believe this or you can deny or ignore it. All I can say is, I heard His voice and His words. The chapter begins with the constellation Virgo - which, without a doubt, God placed in the sky to represent the virgin birth.  I downloaded Astronomy software and checked from 10 BC to 10 AD and found the exact picture John gives us of Virgo in 2 BC.  In other words, John tells us exactly how Virgo would have appeared when Jesus was born. 

Without a doubt, this chapter is God introducing John to the dragon: he is mentioned 32 times. I believe Jesus: He CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill Him as a young child. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Seals being 2000 years old is a myth believed by .0000001 percent of the world.

John wrote the book that includes the seals around 95 AD. That would then make the seals nearly 2000 years old, not to mention the book itself.  It does not matter how many believe what is written. What matters is that it IS written. Jesus ascended, sent the Holy Spirit down, then got the book into HIS hands, with no delays. You seem to want to insert 2000 years into the text somewhere, but rest assured, God did not: Jesus got the book VERY shortly after He ascended. 

Next, people insist on adding 2000 years AFTER He gets to book, if indeed, they believe He got the book around 32 AD.  The truth is, Jesus ascended, sent the Holy Spirit down, got the book from Father God, and started IMMEDIATELY opening the seals.  There is no 2000 years anywhere in those verses - not even for those why try to read between the lines.

Father God had probably been waiting since the days of Adam for someone to become worthy to take the book and open the seals: after all, Satan will not be kicked off his throne UNTIL ALL the seals are opened, then not until ALL the trumpets have sounded - so the sooner God could begin this process, the better. His goal is to get Satan kicked off his throne as the god of this planet and transfer the world back to its rightful owner, Jesus Christ.  But SOMEONE had to be found worthy to take the book before any of this scenario could begin. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

... The Rev. 4:1 passage is a Vision that shows John at WHAT TIME he will be Raptured, after the Rev. 2 and 3 Church Age Period AND BEFORE we see the Church in Heaven via the Rev. 4 and 5 chapters, where we see the PROMISED GIFTS to the over-comers via the 24 Elders, who sit on THRONES, have White Robes on and Crowns of Gold. And in Rev. 5:9 we see they are the REDEEMED from all Nations. This of course happens BEFORE your erroneous idea of the Seals already being opened so of course it ca't be "FACTUAL"  to you, even though it is factual. I know every point you are going to make before you make it and before I read it, and why you have to cling to certain erroneous ideas. 

Let's look: 

⁹ And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying,

“Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Is this a true statement as written, and compared to the rest of the word of God? Certainly it is. It is written that He reconciled THE WORLD to Himself.  Therefore, to attempt to use the 24 elders as proof of a rapture sometime before Rev. 5:9 is an attempt at futility. Oh, many have tried - all have failed. The truth is, Rev. 4: is JOHN Caught up (in 95 AD) - NOT THE CHURCH. It is WAY past 95 AD and the church is still on the earth.  The truth is, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS who those 24 elders are: John does not tell us. All anyone can do is GUESS.

To make "after this" mean "after the church age" is adding meaning NOT supplied by John and again is error.  This is proven beyond any shadow of doubt because the next words is John being caught up STILL in the church age. 

In other words, to make Rev. 4:1 into a pretrib rapture is creating MYTH from the word of God. Rev. 4:1 is not the rapture. It was not the intent of the Author. 

Next, we see that the first seal is a WHITE horse. What can we make of that? In Old Testament prophecy, the horse is used to represent warfare. Since in this passage "conquer" or "overcoming" is used, the horse probably does represent warfare of some kind.  John used the color white 17 times in his book. In no other verse is it ever used to represent anything bad or evil. In at least two places John tells us that white is used to represent righteousness. The other times we could say it probably represents righteousness.  Was there anything at all on the earth in 32 AD that God considered righteous? Yes, of course: the CHURCH.  the first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. That fits the 32 AD context. It fits with conquering or overcoming: Satan was and is the god of this world: he was certainly not just going to allow the church to take the gospel to HIS kingdoms without a fight! So the church HAD to conquer or overcome whenever the Gospel went to somewhere new.  Principalities and powers from the devil was there to fight.

Next, we see that the Red horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse and rider ride together (seem "THEM" at the 4th seal)n leaving out the white horse. He rides alone.  It makes prefect sense then that seals 2, 3, and 4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. However, God limited them to only 1/4th of the earth.

What I have learned: your "facts" are often myths accepted by you as facts.  The erroneous ideas are on your side of this discussion.  In short, you THINK you know, but in fact, too often you are wrong. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No Sin flesh can enter heaven. John was shown a Vision, he was not "CAUGHT UP" to Heaven. A beginning reader would understand that no SIN FLESH can ever enter Heaven.

I have debunked all these timing errors before, yet you persist. If you want to believe some far out idea be my guess, but literally NO ONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD BUYS IT. You are on your own train sir.

SURE....................OK...............We really buy this. NOT.

What is written? 

The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

² Immediately I was in the Spirit...

Who ever said God took him in his flesh and blood body? I have never said that. It seems, since John wrote "I was in the Spirit.." it is FAR more likely God just took John's spirit and soul to heaven.  It is VERY likely that is how Paul saw heaven.  The truth then is that John WAS caught up in spirit and then God showed Him the vision.  

(if this is what you call "debunking" you have much to learn!) 

And you are mistaken yet again: I am not alone in my belief, others are beginning to understand the truth of chapters 4 & 5.  you might look up a book: The Red Moon Rising."

A question: how can my theory be "far out" when I follow the text? 

Where you miss it or ignore it:

Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father - but we have over a dozen verses telling us He should have been seen there. Stephen SAW Him there earlier. Next, the Holy Spirit WAS there, but again, we would expect, in 95 AD, that He would have long before been sent down. (We SEE Him sent down in chapter 5) Finally, in a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, no man was found - not even Jesus!  
 

You can choose to ignore these things, or just gloss over them, but until you know the real reason, you will never understand this part of John's vision. And when you miss it here, then it is like dominoes - more and more theories fall too, because the foundation was faulty. 

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When Jesus was teaching me chapters 4 & 5, and I was stuck, not able to answer His three questions, He sent me to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, He spoke:  “This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

You can believe this or you can deny or ignore it. All I can say is, I heard His voice and His words. The chapter begins with the constellation Virgo - which, without a doubt, God placed in the sky to represent the virgin birth.  I downloaded Astronomy software and checked from 10 BC to 10 AD and found the exact picture John gives us of Virgo in 2 BC.  In other words, John tells us exactly how Virgo would have appeared when Jesus was born. 

Without a doubt, this chapter is God introducing John to the dragon: he is mentioned 32 times. I believe Jesus: He CHOSE to show John how the dragon tried to kill Him as a young child. 

Satan speaks CONFUSION, ask Peter...........Jesus told him, "Get thee behind me Satan". 

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John wrote the book that includes the seals around 95 AD. That would then make the seals nearly 2000 years old, not to mention the book itself.  It does not matter how many believe what is written. What matters is that it IS written. Jesus ascended, sent the Holy Spirit down, then got the book into HIS hands, with no delays. You seem to want to insert 2000 years into the text somewhere, but rest assured, God did not: Jesus got the book VERY shortly after He ascended. 

Next, people insist on adding 2000 years AFTER He gets to book, if indeed, they believe He got the book around 32 AD.  The truth is, Jesus ascended, sent the Holy Spirit down, got the book from Father God, and started IMMEDIATELY opening the seals.  There is no 2000 years anywhere in those verses - not even for those why try to read between the lines.

Father God had probably been waiting since the days of Adam for someone to become worthy to take the book and open the seals: after all, Satan will not be kicked off his throne UNTIL ALL the seals are opened, then not until ALL the trumpets have sounded - so the sooner God could begin this process, the better. His goal is to get Satan kicked off his throne as the god of this planet and transfer the world back to its rightful owner, Jesus Christ.  But SOMEONE had to be found worthy to take the book before any of this scenario could begin. 

No one buys this except you and a select few.........0000001 percent. Its not even a debate argument to me anymore, I debate things to overcome them in the public eye, IMHO, this is no longer worthy of even debate. Its just a waste of time.

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's look: 

⁹ And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying,

“Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Is this a true statement as written, and compared to the rest of the word of God? Certainly it is. It is written that He reconciled THE WORLD to Himself.  Therefore, to attempt to use the 24 elders as proof of a rapture sometime before Rev. 5:9 is an attempt at futility. Oh, many have tried - all have failed. The truth is, Rev. 4: is JOHN Caught up (in 95 AD) - NOT THE CHURCH. It is WAY past 95 AD and the church is still on the earth.  The truth is, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS who those 24 elders are: John does not tell us. All anyone can do is GUESS.

To make "after this" mean "after the church age" is adding meaning NOT supplied by John and again is error.  This is proven beyond any shadow of doubt because the next words is John being caught up STILL in the church age. 

In other words, to make Rev. 4:1 into a pretrib rapture is creating MYTH from the word of God. Rev. 4:1 is not the rapture. It was not the intent of the Author. 

Next, we see that the first seal is a WHITE horse. What can we make of that? In Old Testament prophecy, the horse is used to represent warfare. Since in this passage "conquer" or "overcoming" is used, the horse probably does represent warfare of some kind.  John used the color white 17 times in his book. In no other verse is it ever used to represent anything bad or evil. In at least two places John tells us that white is used to represent righteousness. The other times we could say it probably represents righteousness.  Was there anything at all on the earth in 32 AD that God considered righteous? Yes, of course: the CHURCH.  the first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. That fits the 32 AD context. It fits with conquering or overcoming: Satan was and is the god of this world: he was certainly not just going to allow the church to take the gospel to HIS kingdoms without a fight! So the church HAD to conquer or overcome whenever the Gospel went to somewhere new.  Principalities and powers from the devil was there to fight.

Next, we see that the Red horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse and rider ride together (seem "THEM" at the 4th seal)n leaving out the white horse. He rides alone.  It makes prefect sense then that seals 2, 3, and 4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. However, God limited them to only 1/4th of the earth.

What I have learned: your "facts" are often myths accepted by you as facts.  The erroneous ideas are on your side of this discussion.  In short, you THINK you know, but in fact, too often you are wrong. 

The First 5 Seals are the coming Anti-Christs RULE over a 42 month period of time, which includes him Conquering, bringing War/taking away Peace, Famine via the Wars, and of course Death and Sickness. Of course the Martyrs are going happen at the same time as the First Four Seals. The 6th Seal is God's Wrath (asteroid strike) which kicks it all off, the Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering on the day this asteroid strikes, he uses chaos to his advantage (understands dark sentences). Satan knows to ATTACK at the most chaotic times.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What is written? 

The first voice that I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

² Immediately I was in the Spirit...

Who ever said God took him in his flesh and blood body? I have never said that. It seems, since John wrote "I was in the Spirit.." it is FAR more likely God just took John's spirit and soul to heaven.  It is VERY likely that is how Paul saw heaven.  The truth then is that John WAS caught up in spirit and then God showed Him the vision.  

(if this is what you call "debunking" you have much to learn!) 

And you are mistaken yet again: I am not alone in my belief, others are beginning to understand the truth of chapters 4 & 5.  you might look up a book: The Red Moon Rising."

A question: how can my theory be "far out" when I follow the text? 

Where you miss it or ignore it:

Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father - but we have over a dozen verses telling us He should have been seen there. Stephen SAW Him there earlier. Next, the Holy Spirit WAS there, but again, we would expect, in 95 AD, that He would have long before been sent down. (We SEE Him sent down in chapter 5) Finally, in a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals, no man was found - not even Jesus!  
 

You can choose to ignore these things, or just gloss over them, but until you know the real reason, you will never understand this part of John's vision. And when you miss it here, then it is like dominoes - more and more theories fall too, because the foundation was faulty. 

All the bible is WRITTEN.....The difference is to understand it you have to be directed unto the truth by the Holy Spirit.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Satan speaks CONFUSION, ask Peter...........Jesus told him, "Get thee behind me Satan". 

No one buys this except you and a select few.........0000001 percent. Its not even a debate argument to me anymore, I debate things to overcome them in the public eye, IMHO, this is no longer worthy of even debate. Its just a waste of time.

 

The First 5 Seals are the coming Anti-Christs RULE over a 42 month period of time, which includes him Conquering, bringing War/taking away Peace, Famine via the Wars, and of course Death and Sickness. Of course the Martyrs are going happen at the same time as the First Four Seals. The 6th Seal is God's Wrath (asteroid strike) which kicks it all off, the Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering on the day this asteroid strikes, he uses chaos to his advantage (understands dark sentences). Satan knows to ATTACK at the most chaotic times.

All the bible is WRITTEN.....The difference is to understand it you have to be directed unto the truth by the Holy Spirit.

Satan speaks CONFUSION, ask Peter...........Jesus told him, "Get thee behind me Satan".   Ah! So you imagine I was listening to Satan. And that ONLY because your preconceived theories don't agree with mine. I hope you understand, YOU can be wrong. In fact, you often are, teaching things that don't agree with the written word. You are so far off from truth here, you have not recognized it as truth. One day you will. 

It is useless to continue: as you said, a waste of time. However, when I see you write error, I will correct you so the readers can get another view. 

Just so you know, you alone do not have a "corner" on the Holy Spirit.