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iamlamad

SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

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The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
 
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
 
 
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
 
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 
Question: are these verses telling us of ONE TIME these signs will be seen, as a sign for ONE EVENT?
Or are these verses telling us of TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT events?
 
There are more:
 
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
 
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
 
 

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This is referring to the next mass extinction event "Wormwood". This complete narrative matches perfectly the the K-Pg event of the dinosaurs, both in effects and duration in amazing detail. This scripture is astonishing and a miracle of God to be published thousands of years before any of this could be understood. This is describing the results of simultaneous global wide volcanic activity caused by the shock of a meteor impact. 

Edited by Scott Free
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*[[Mar 13:24]] KJV* But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

One thing this verse tells us.   There is no pre - great tribulation,  tribulation.   "Those days"  refers back to verse 19:

*[[Mar 13:19]] KJV* For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

The great tribulation days begins BEFORE the sun and moon are darkened. 

The PuP 

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
 
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
 
 
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
 
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 
Question: are these verses telling us of ONE TIME these signs will be seen, as a sign for ONE EVENT?
Or are these verses telling us of TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT events?
 
There are more:
 
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
 
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
 
 

Many of these verses require the context in which they were written. Also remember that Jewish thinking is cyclical so why can't these events actually be multiple or continual reiterating the continuation of an event. Also, ask the Holy Spirit.

 

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2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

*[[Mar 13:24]] KJV* But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

One thing this verse tells us.   There is no pre - great tribulation,  tribulation.   "Those days"  refers back to verse 19:

*[[Mar 13:19]] KJV* For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

The great tribulation days begins BEFORE the sun and moon are darkened. 

The PuP 

Well, you have proven that by Mar. 13, there will be signs AFTER the tribulation. 

And before these signs as given in verse 24, days of GT will be on the earth. 

Well said. But are these the signs given in Joel 2:31 and at the 6th seal?

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22 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Many of these verses require the context in which they were written. Also remember that Jewish thinking is cyclical so why can't these events actually be multiple or continual reiterating the continuation of an event. Also, ask the Holy Spirit.

 

Wiser words have seldom been spoken: KEEP verses in their context!

I will add another one: things that SEEM to be similar in a given translation my not be when the Greek or Hebrew is studied. 

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20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Well, you have proven that by Mar. 13, there will be signs AFTER the tribulation. 

And before these signs as given in verse 24, days of GT will be on the earth. 

Well said. But are these the signs given in Joel 2:31 and at the 6th seal?

Absolutely yes.   The same language is used earlier in Joel 2 that gives us two important unique connections to that day: 

*[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

*[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is GREAT and very TERRIBLE; and who can abide it?

They are:

1.Shaking both heaven & earth,

2.God uttering his voice. 

Hebrews tells us that it is a one and only one - time event in which God will shake the heavens and the earth with the shout of his voice: 

*[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Joel 2:10,11 is further connected to verse 31 by calling both "great & terrible":

*[[Joe 2:31]] KJV* The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the GREAT and the TERRIBLE day of the LORD come.

Jer 25:29-30, Joel 3:16,Amos 1:2, Haggai 2:21ff connects all these things together. Once more God will shake the heavens that will bring in the everlasting kingdom: 

*[[Rev 6:13]] KJV* And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The PuP 

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Joel 2:31  Darkness:  Strong’s: (chôshek), kho-shek'; from H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:—dark(-ness), night, obscurity. 

 (A verb showing action  - something not normal – unusual. Standing outside at night, one would expect a certain amount of light – but this is all the light taken away!)

 Gen 1:2 (chôshek) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness H2822 was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:4  (chôshek)  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. H2822

[can be summarized as “deprived of light”, or that the “light is taken”.  In other words, it is the near total absence of light. (Like standing deep in a coal mine)]

 oel 2:10 Dark:  Strong’s: קָדַר qâdar, kaw-dar'; a primitive root; to be ashy, i.e. dark-colored; by implication, to mourn (in sackcloth or sordid garments):—be black(-ish), be (make) dark(-en), × heavily, (cause to) mourn.  (Masculine noun describing a normal condition)

 1Ki 18:45  (qâdar) And it came to pass in the mean while, that the heaven was black H6937 with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel.

Joe 3:15 (qâdar)  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, H6937 and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Jer 4:28  (qâdar) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: H6937 because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

 summarized as “darkness, as opposed to black”, or “blackness, vs. black”.  In other words, it is what we would commonly describe as “the dark of night” as opposed to the “the absence of all light” as if standing in a coal mine.

 Consider Joel 2: same writer, same letter - why would he use two different words for the condition of darkness in the two different verses? One verse, 31 comes before THE DAY, but verse 10, it seems, is IN the day. And verse 10 uses the same word he used in chapter 3, a time of Jesus’ coming.

 It seems Joel was seeing TWO DIFFERENT types of darkness. In one, the sky is totally dark – not even star light, so the absence of light – abnormal.

 In Matthew and Mark, the same Greek word is used for darkness. skotizó: to darken  It is a verb.

Strong’s:  “to cover with darkness, to darken; passive, to be covered with darkness, be darkened”: properly, of the heavenly bodies, as deprived of light

 We see then  that Joel 2:10, 3:15, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 appear to be detailing the same type of event when it comes to the occurrence in the sun.  All four scriptures tell us that the light of the sun will be taken from the earth when this event comes to pass. This is very similar to ordinary nightfall. All these use a verb form to describe it.  

Now Rev. 6:12-13

 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 black as sackcloth of hair  What does this mean?  Look at a black goat!

 Vine’s for sackcloth: made from the hair of the black goat of Cilicia;”  “a warm material woven from goat’s or camel’s hair,” and hence of a dark color,” “ also for making sacks,”

Bible Dictionary:  “Sackcloth (pv sak aeKKos saccys) was a coarse woven materials from goats and camels hair and dark of a color Hence: as we see from Rev 6:19 are ‘Became the black as sackcloth of hair…’”

 Is there any light in “black as sackcloth of hair?” Could it describe the absence of light. Imagine looking at the sun and actually being ABLE to look at it, because it was putting out NO light at all.  John is not bringing sackcloth to a new level of black, but rather he is setting the perception of the sun to what people of that day would see in black sackcloth – no light.

 In fact, if the sun was putting out no light, it would probably not even be visible.  In such a case, the moon should not be visible either – but the moon appears blood red – so we have a very unusual condition in both the sun and the moon. 

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The MOON:

 How can anyone equate the moon “not giving her light” with a blood moon? To know a blood moon is to SEE a blood moon. We all SHOULD know that if the moon is not giving (reflecting) her light, she is invisible! Clearly these two terms cannot be equated!

 For Joel 2:10 and 3:15, the word qā·ḏā·rū used  -  the exact same word used for the signs in the sun. So Joel used the very same word for both the sun and the moon.  And according to Joel, it would be looking at both at the same time. Remember, this is a noun describing a normal condition. (At the right time of day, as the sun is setting, the moon could be visible- if at the right time of the month.) For Joel’s and Matthew’s verses, perhaps like a cloudy night where the light is just lessoned  - perhaps the time of month where the moon is not seen. This is not an active verb description, where perhaps an outside force is causing it. One could say, “the absence of most light” – like a dark night: still a tiny bit of light.

 Matthew says, “the moon will not give her light.” We know the light of the moon is sunlight reflected. It appears then that the sunlight is not hitting the moon to be reflected.  We could say “the dark of night” or the night with no moonlight. This kind of a night comes every month.

 Another interesting point: in the Byzantine Majority text, The Alexandrian text, and the Hort and Wescott text, the word “Hole” [olh] in including, meaning the moon WHOLE: it is speaking of a full moon. It is most likely speaking of a lunar eclipse.  In Joel, 2:10 and Joel 3, [wə·yā·rê·aḥ] he used a slightly different form of the Hebrew word for moon than he used in 2:31 [wə·hay·yā·rê·aḥ]. They both mean the same moon that we see. But why the difference? Could one add the meaning of a full moon? I don’t know. The point?  of the 7 feasts of the Jews, 6 of them include a full moon!  There are three distinct phases of the moon in the bible: the new moon, when the first tiny bit of light is reflected and can be visible seen; then “the moon” - all phases up to the full, and finally the full moon.

 Note that it was the sliver of a moon that was the time keeper. They had to have two witnesses to verify they saw a tiny bit of light from the moon. Keep in mind, for two or three days before that, NO LIGHT from the moon -  a normal occurrence. Remember, a moon “not giving her light” cannot possibly be a blood moon.

 Next, there is a difference between falling stars and stars failing to give light.

 The start of the seven year tribulation

The sun turned to darkness Joel 2:30, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12

The turned to blood Joel 2:30, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12

The stars fall to earth Revelation 6:13

The end of the seven year tribulation

The sun and moon go dark Joel 2:10*, 3:15, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24

The stars withdraw their shining Joel 2:10*, 3:15

The stars fall from heaven Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24

 Note: there is a difference in stars falling to earth and stars falling from heaven.

We know a real star could not fall to earth. Remember, anything that glows in the night sky we tend to call a “star” – even a tiny meteorite that is falling into earth’s atmosphere.

 Conclusion: when the sun turns dark, and the moon into blood, they are not necessarily seen at the same time. It could be months in between. But when both the sun and moon are darkened, it is seeing both at the same time. When “the sun turns dark” it is more like something obstructing it – blocking the rays: again it seems more like an eclipse. An total eclipse of the sun comes ONLY with a dark moon. If a sliver of moon is showing, then it will not be a total eclipse.

 Note VERY carefully: when a total solar eciplse takes place: “The sun  is darkened” even if but for a short period of time. “The moon is darkened” maybe for three days. Most stars are not visible – it is day time – even though it is dark. On clear days there will always be star light – even the dimmist stars can be seen if away from city lights. It may then appear darker during a solar eclipse than on a normal night.  How can the sun “turn into” darkness? At an eclipse.

 The moon in ANY phase cannot cause the stars to darken so they cannot be seen. But a total eclipse of the sun will make stars difficult to see, because it is day, not night: “stars shall not give their light” and “withdraw their shining.”

 Things to ponder: the signs in the sun and moon as shown in Joel 2:10 and Joel 3 are signs that will happen at the same time, or be seen at the same time.

NOT so of the sign in Joel 2:31.

 Given the evidence, it seems very clear that God is telling us of TWO different signs for TWO different purposes. We have Joel 2:31 with the 6th seal events as one level of darkness, using a verb, while Joel 2:10 and Joel 3, along with the gospel versions, showing a normal night kind of darkness.

 My conclusion then is that Joel 2:10, 3:15, Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 bookend the END of the 70th week, while Joel  2:31 and the 6th seal bookend the BEGINNING of the 70th week.

 What we can prove by scripture:

 At the start of the “tribulation” or 70th week:

Solar eclipse – blood moon – meteor shower (Falling stars falling to the earth) NOT at the same time.

 AFTER the tribulation:

Total or annular solar eclipse (stars dark) Falling stars

Sun and moon go dark: same time

Joel 2:10, 3:15, Matthew 24, Mark 13:24

 Stars withdraw their shining: Joel 2:10 and 3:15.

 Stars fall from heaven: Matthew 24:29, Mark 13.24

 In March 20, 2015, the solar eclipse and last blood moon  were both visible from Israel.  There was a meteor shower same year from Oct to Nov.

 Conclusion:  we have all three elements of Revelation 6:12-13 – the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood and the stars falling – in that order. In 2015 -  in the space of 19 days – all on feast days of Israel. Coincidence? Hardly!   

I look for the signing of the treaty soon, right after the rapture. 

Edited by iamlamad

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24 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Absolutely yes.   The same language is used earlier in Joel 2 that gives us two important unique connections to that day: 

*[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

*[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is GREAT and very TERRIBLE; and who can abide it?

They are:

1.Shaking both heaven & earth,

2.God uttering his voice. 

Hebrews tells us that it is a one and only one - time event in which God will shake the heavens and the earth with the shout of his voice: 

*[[Heb 12:26]] KJV* Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. [27] And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Joel 2:10,11 is further connected to verse 31 by calling both "great & terrible":

*[[Joe 2:31]] KJV* The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the GREAT and the TERRIBLE day of the LORD come.

Jer 25:29-30, Joel 3:16,Amos 1:2, Haggai 2:21ff connects all these things together. Once more God will shake the heavens that will bring in the everlasting kingdom: 

*[[Rev 6:13]] KJV* And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

*[[Rev 12:10]] KJV* And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The PuP 

I say absolutely no.  When we study these things out, it is easy to see these signs in the sun and moon are different and that they happen at different times.

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      Next, where do people see the start of the 70th week and why.
      Finally, where do people see the exact midpoint, and why.
      Since Revelation already HAS an order, that is a chronology, I will not change it. I think the Holy Spirit knew and knows the sequence of events that is coming. Therefore, I believe any theory that must rearrange Revelation to work will immediately be suspect and in the end will be proven wrong. Further, I am convinced that it is the 70th week that is INSIDE the seals scroll, and that all 7 seals must be opened before the 70th week can begin. I see the 70th week then beginning with the 7th seal that allows the book to be opened. therefore the trumpets will come in the first half of the week. 
      With that said, John TELLS US where the Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath begins: right at the 6th seal. 
      Next, I see the 70th week beginning right at the 7th seal, and I see the midpoint right at the 7th trumpet. I see the week end at the 7th vial. therefore the entire week is marked by 7's. 
      I find it amusing that people imagine they can move events around (rearranging) revelation to fit a theory. I think it would be far wiser to create a theory from the book AS WRITTEN. I find such a theory fits all end times scriptures.
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