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iamlamad

SIGNS in the Sun and Moon

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20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I say absolutely no.  When we study these things out, it is easy to see these signs in the sun and moon are different and that they happen at different times.

You are entitled to your opinion but unless you are prepared to prove that the great and terrible day is not  the same day as when God shakes the heavens and the Earth, then that's all it is,your opinion.

The PuP 

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19 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

You are entitled to your opinion but unless you are prepared to prove that the great and terrible day is not  the same day as when God shakes the heavens and the Earth, then that's all it is,your opinion.

The PuP 

Revelation shows at least two great earthquakes: 6th seal and 7th trumpet. Have you decided which one your Old Testament verse is referring to? 

Note: it is always wise to base doctrine on later revelations, rather than earlier, for God is a self revealing God and over time reveals more and more. Then it is also wise to form doctrine from greater revelations rather then lessor. For example, The Old Testament may cover something in one verse, but Revelation cover it it chapters. 

I found yet another shaking: 2 Samuel 22

In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.

Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.

11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.

14 The Lord thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

Psalm 68:8

The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
 
Also remember, if the writer of Hebrews was Paul, then he also wrote "there is one baptism..."
 
This is probably what Hebrews was referring to:
 
And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Edited by iamlamad

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6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Revelation shows at least two great earthquakes: 6th seal and 7th trumpet. Have you decided which one your Old Testament verse is referring to? 

Note: it is always wise to base doctrine on later revelations, rather than earlier, for God is a self revealing God and over time reveals more and more. Then it is also wise to form doctrine from greater revelations rather then lessor. For example, The Old Testament may cover something in one verse, but Revelation cover it it chapters. 

I found yet another shaking: 2 Samuel 22

In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.

Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.

11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.

14 The Lord thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.

Psalm 68:8

The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
 
Also remember, if the writer of Hebrews was Paul, then he also wrote "there is one baptism..."
 
This is probably what Hebrews was referring to:
 
And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

What do historical recountings that were made, before a prophecy that has a singular FUTURE fulfilment, being only similar to previous orations of God, have to do with its fulfilment?  Nothing! 

Being that you:

1. Believe that the great tribulation does not begin until Satan is cast out,  and

2. Acknowledged that Mark 13:24 occurs AFTER the tribulation has begun, 

3. Revelation is chronological, 

To prove your view to be anything more than your opinion,  you need to show (post 7th trumpet)  where one of the 3 occurs afterwards: 

A.  Shaking heaven, 

B. God's voice

C. Terrible day of the Lord. 

Just saying that you believe it happens at such and such a place,  won't suffice.   When it comes to prophetic fulfillment,  God's word does not accept vagueness. 

*[[2Pe 1:20]] KJV* Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Blessings

The PuP 

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2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

What do historical recountings that were made, before a prophecy that has a singular FUTURE fulfilment, being only similar to previous orations of God, have to do with its fulfilment?  Nothing! 

Being that you:

1. Believe that the great tribulation does not begin until Satan is cast out,  and

2. Acknowledged that Mark 13:24 occurs AFTER the tribulation has begun, 

3. Revelation is chronological, 

To prove your view to be anything more than your opinion,  you need to show (post 7th trumpet)  where one of the 3 occurs afterwards: 

A.  Shaking heaven, 

B. God's voice

C. Terrible day of the Lord. 

Just saying that you believe it happens at such and such a place,  won't suffice.   When it comes to prophetic fulfillment,  God's word does not accept vagueness. 

*[[2Pe 1:20]] KJV* Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Blessings

The PuP 

The truth is, Matthew 24 tells us of things that will happen in REv. 19 time that is not written in Revelation, but is written in Matthew.  

So the truth is, I don't need to show anything from Revelation Go read it in Matthew 24. 

However from REvelation we see:

chapter 12, the devil cast down.

chapter 13: the rise of the Beast and false prophet; the image and mark - the very things that will cause great tribulation.

Chapter 14: warning not to take the mark.

Chapter 15: the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven.

What more proof would anyone need that the days of GT in Revelation are in the last half of the week: exactly where Matthew 24 tells us they will come.

BTW, I don't just "say things." What I write comes mostly from Revelation correctly understood. 

Edited by iamlamad

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25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, Matthew 24 tells us of things that will happen in REv. 19 time that is not written in Revelation, but is written in Matthew.  

So the truth is, I don't need to show anything from Revelation Go read it in Matthew 24. 

However from REvelation we see:

chapter 12, the devil cast down.

chapter 13: the rise of the Beast and false prophet; the image and mark - the very things that will cause great tribulation.

Chapter 14: warning not to take the mark.

Chapter 15: the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven.

What more proof would anyone need that the days of GT in Revelation are in the last half of the week: exactly where Matthew 24 tells us they will come.

BTW, I don't just "say things." What I write comes mostly from Revelation correctly understood. 

 your opinion makes me laugh.   How could you possibly know where something takes place in Revelation when it's not even included?   So funny.   What's more is that the man of sin nor the mark of the beast are even mentioned in Matthew.   Why don't you just show us where you think it is. 

While you are at it,  show us where Satan is cast out of heaven,  seeing that the next thing that happens after verse 29 is Jesus's coming with clouds and great glory,  so it can't be in verse 29.

The PuP 

 

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Just now, Da Puppers said:

 your opinion makes me laugh.   How could you possibly know where something takes place in Revelation when it's not even included?   So funny.   What's more is that the man of sin nor the mark of the beast are even mentioned in Matthew.   Why don't you just show us where you think it is. 

While you are at it,  show us where Satan is cast out of heaven,  seeing that the next thing that happens after verse 29 is Jesus's coming with clouds and great glory,  so it can't be in verse 29.

The PuP 

Go ahead and laugh: the joke is on you. When Matthew says "after the tribulation of those days" that tells us where to look in Revelation.  When Matthew 24 tells us of the abomination, we know where to look in Revelation. Well, let me rephrase: I KNOW - you may not. 

I have showed you over and over and you don't believe? Why show you again?

But since I am a nice guy, Satan is cast out at the midpoint - that midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet.  The sound of the 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to go to war.  Oh, since you won't believe anyway, I will add that the midpoint of the week in Matthew 24 is in verse 15. 

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Go ahead and laugh: the joke is on you. When Matthew says "after the tribulation of those days" that tells us where to look in Revelation.  When Matthew 24 tells us of the abomination, we know where to look in Revelation. Well, let me rephrase: I KNOW - you may not. 

I have showed you over and over and you don't believe? Why show you again?

But since I am a nice guy, Satan is cast out at the midpoint - that midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet.  The sound of the 7th trumpet will be Michael's signal to go to war.  Oh, since you won't believe anyway, I will add that the midpoint of the week in Matthew 24 is in verse 

h1. G4531

Original: *σαλεύω*

Transliteration: *saleuō*

Phonetic: *sal-yoo'-o*

*Thayer Definition*:

1. a motion produced by winds, storms, waves, etc
A. to agitate or shake
B. to cause to totter
C. to shake thoroughly, of a measure filled by shaking its contents together
2. to shake down, overthrow
A. to cast down from one's (secure and happy) state
B. to move, agitate the mind, to disturb one

Origin: from [[d 4535]]

TDNT entry: 08:06,0

Part(s) of speech: Verb

*Strong's Definition*: From [[G4535]]; to _waver_, that is, _agitate, rock, topple_ or (by implication) _destroy_ ; figuratively to _disturb, incite:_ - move, shake (together), which can [-not] be shaken, stir up.

If the word G4531, saleuo, translated as shaken in Matt 24:29, does not equate in your mind "the shaking of the heavens", as that spoken of in HEB 12:26ff, then I don't know of anything to do but,  leave you be. 

*[[Mat 24:29]] KJV* Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The PuP 

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9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

h1. G4531

Original: *σαλεύω*

Transliteration: *saleuō*

Phonetic: *sal-yoo'-o*

*Thayer Definition*:

1. a motion produced by winds, storms, waves, etc
A. to agitate or shake
B. to cause to totter
C. to shake thoroughly, of a measure filled by shaking its contents together
2. to shake down, overthrow
A. to cast down from one's (secure and happy) state
B. to move, agitate the mind, to disturb one

Origin: from [[d 4535]]

TDNT entry: 08:06,0

Part(s) of speech: Verb

*Strong's Definition*: From [[G4535]]; to _waver_, that is, _agitate, rock, topple_ or (by implication) _destroy_ ; figuratively to _disturb, incite:_ - move, shake (together), which can [-not] be shaken, stir up.

If the word G4531, saleuo, translated as shaken in Matt 24:29, does not equate in your mind "the shaking of the heavens", as that spoken of in HEB 12:26ff, then I don't know of anything to do but,  leave you be. 

*[[Mat 24:29]] KJV* Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The PuP 

I still don't understand why you imagine one event that comes after the days of tribultion can be the same event as one that comes before the days of tribulation. God could use the very same Greek word for both....but TIMING proves they are not the same.  We don't even need to search the Greek to know they are not the same: just keeping each text in its context proves this. 

Also please keep in mind, the same bible that tells you that once more God will shake the earth and the heavens also says "there is one baptism."  Yet, we know there is a baptism in water, a baptism into the body of Christ, and a baptism in the Holy Spirit. Which "one" then did God mean?

It is the same with the shaking: WHICH "shaking" Was Hebrew's referring to? My guess is, the worst shaking  - which is at the 7th vial that shakes the mountains down into the earth. After all, that shaking is indeed "after" the days of tribulation. The shaking at the 6th seal is BEFORE the days of GT.  But it is only a guess because the bible does not make it clear. 

Has God spoken to you and TOLD you wish shaking Hebrews was referring to? 

Edited by iamlamad

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I still don't understand why you imagine one event that comes after the days of tribultion can be the same event as one that comes before the days of tribulation. God could use the very same Greek word for both....but TIMING proves they are not the same.  We don't even need to search the Greek to know they are not the same: just keeping each text in its context proves this. 

Also please keep in mind, the same bible that tells you that once more God will shake the earth and the heavens also says "there is one baptism."  Yet, we know there is a baptism in water, a baptism into the body of Christ, and a baptism in the Holy Spirit. Which "one" then did God mean?

It is the same with the shaking: WHICH "shaking" Was Hebrew's referring to? My guess is, the worst shaking  - which is at the 7th vial that shakes the mountains down into the earth. After all, that shaking is indeed "after" the days of tribulation. The shaking at the 6th seal is BEFORE the days of GT.  But it is only a guess because the bible does not make it clear. 

Has God spoken to you and TOLD you wish shaking Hebrews was referring to? 

I think that it obvious that one shaking of the heavens (along with the earth[we are not taking about the earthly phenomenon of earthquakes]) means just that... Once.  You are overlooking the context of the scripture and looking only at the use of different words for darkness.  Here it is again: 

*[[Joe 2:10]] KJV* The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Where does he utter his voice from? 

*[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

*[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

*[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

*[[Jer 25:30]] KJV* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 

And so where does deliverance come from? 

With these words from Jeremiah 25:29-38 we find judgment BEGINS at Jerusalem WHEN God utters his voice from there AND THEN spreads to the whole world and will leave the land [of Israel] desolate. 

*[[Joe 2:31]] KJV* The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. [32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Why does deliverance come from Zion? 

*[[Joe 2:27]] KJV* And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Review these scriptures if you have to.   The following things are all part of a simultaneous event: 

1.  God uttering his voice from Jerusalem, 

2. Heavens [and earth]  shake

3. Sun and moon darkness, 

4.Great and terrible day of the Lord. 

5. Overthrow of the kingdoms [from Haggai 2:21ff]

Blessings

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers

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         Tabernacles will be fulfilled by the Lord setting His Throne in Jerusalem so all the saved would come up to it, since it is on a mountain, Mount Olivet.
         Remaining Jews will experience the time of Jacob's trouble and consider the fulfillments of some of the feasts, and realize what the Lord has done.  The periods of time spoken of by the prophet Daniel will commence to be fulfilled.
         The Lord has a marvelous plan for the Jews.  He will mightily undertake for them, and just as Joseph dealt with his brothers and restored them to himself in a time of great famine, so the Lord will undertake for them in the dark days prophesied in the Scriptures, and they will be restored to Him with tears of joy. 
         We are soon coming to the sunset, it seems to me.  In the twilight after we believers are gone, the Day of the Lord will commence. 
         The sun was darkened when Jesus died, and the Jewish day commences at sunset, and with it begins the dark Day of the Lord.  The Day of Atonement will come and stretch on as the Jews seek God's salvation in that awful time. 
         The seven years start with the covenant of the evil one and Israel, but there could be some intervening time between the Rapture and the start of the Tribulation.  The time of Jacob's trouble will commence, the time of Daniel's seventieth "week."  Greater things than the Exodus will occur.  Afterward, Tabernacles, and then the light of the new day will come, the thousand year earthly reign of Christ here on earth.  And He shall reign forever and ever.
         Some say the Church will go through the tribulation, that God fulfilled the spring feasts in a mighty way on the earth, but that both believers and unbelievers will move together into the tribulation.
         Jesus will set up His kingdom on earth, and sit upon the throne of David, and rule the earth from Jerusalem.  Every year, all people of the earth will come to worship Him there or they will have no rain, according to Zechariah.  Jesus will reign one thousand years, and turn all over to His Father for eternity. 
         Blessed be the Name of the Lord!  

      *****
      Notes, 26 March 2018: 
         I want to say a bit more about a group referred to by various names: NAR New Apostolic Revolution, Latter Day Rain, MSOG or Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now, Dominion Theology, Identity.  They and others teach against pre-tribulation Rapture and that Jesus will not come until believers take over, have dominion over the world.   I've read that they believe that the office of Apostle can be conferred by the laying on of their hands, and that the Church has replaced Israel, Replacement Theology.  
         In 2018, Paul Smith of Calvary Chapel states that the "New Evangelical"  outlook, which I think is spreading among some churches, is that Jesus is gradually coming into hearts.   [So many are being taught to not take the Scripture literally as to Jesus' return.]
         I visited a Manifest Sons type of group with an acquaintance, in 1980s, for their large Feast of Tabernacles meetings and celebration, and it took me awhile, but I realized, 'What about the blessed hope?'  
         I take the Scriptures literally and decided the blessed hope is the hope of His coming for believers -- not death, not tribulation, not being hidden in Petra in the mountains southwest of Jerusalem. 
         I'm surprised, but these post-tribulation ideas are still growing and are found among many.  The Manifest Sons group has their main weekly meeting on Saturday, is allied with "CCC" Christ Community Churches.  Dominion Theology people preach that the Church must bring the earth under control before Jesus can come again.
         We will benefit from comparing Scriptures about 1) the grain harvest 2) the coming for the Bride 3) the householder on a journey who exhorts his servants to watch, and will learn much by looking again at the parables of Jesus.
         All unbelieving people left behind at the Rapture will live during the Time of Jacob's trouble.  God's plan will be fulfilled and many will be saved, but many will die, many will be executed, and suffering will be great.   One hundred forty four thousand Jewish men from the tribes will evangelize and many will believe.  After the departing of the Church, the Scripture will be fulfilled, Jeremiah 8:20  The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.  
         The book of Joel chapter 1 speaks of an event that has occurred:  "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?  Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation."  Verse 7: "He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."   Does this event point to the missing believers and realization by Jews that they had not recognized Messiah, or does it indicate there has been a military attack on Israel?
         Specifics for events in the time of tribulation can be found in Daniel and in the Book of Revelation.
         The evil man will arise and set up world government and eventually enter the Temple in Jerusalem, saying he is God, and the most awful times will occur.  Great numbers of new believers, who will refuse to take his mark, will be beheaded.  Eventually, as Jesus warned, some will flee Jerusalem and hide in the mountains to the southeast, and be sustained by the Lord. 
         Evil unbelieving people of the tribulation are compared to a harvest gathering of grapes, to be crushed.
         Believers during the Time of Jacob's trouble might be compared to the olive harvest, the last harvest of the agricultural year, and the pressing of the olives.
         After a specific number of days, Jesus will come with all His saints, on white horses and clothed in white linen, and He will split Mount Olivet in Jerusalem, east to west.  He will slay all His enemies upon the earth by the word from His mouth.  Some people will live through the tribulation and have children, in a time of peace, blessing, abundance.  Satan will be bound, Rev. 20.
         Rev. 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
         We look forward to His gathering of His grain harvest.  Rev. 22:20  Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
         
    • By Jonathan Dane
      (an excerpt from my book, Rise of the Little Horn)
       
      The Emergence
      A man with no military or political experience announces his run for the most powerful seat in the world. His promise? GREATNESS. He controls the flow of money, and is head over a military that is unmatched in the world. He is consumed with winning politically and fortifying his strongholds. Though initially thought of as a minor threat by his associates, he truly towers over them. He demolishes them by means of abusive and slanderous speech, tears down the character of those who oppose him and flatters and elevates those who admire him. He rises up as if by sheer will. He is an alpha male who plots and manipulates anything and everything to take down his opponents. He is seemingly unstoppable. To the utter amazement of the world, he succeeds at nearly everything he does, despite his lack of deep personal conviction on any issue except self-aggrandizement. His narcissistic pride is evident to all as he continually boasts, exaggerating his achievements and financial worth. He is characteristically disingenuous, so deftly twisting the truth that deceit becomes the norm rather than the exception.
      An aura emanates from him that seems to delude people’s thinking; making those―seemingly intelligent―unable to discern truth from falsehood. At some point, these deluded masses begin to view good things as evil and evil things as good. He is untamable, doing whatever he pleases. These characteristics cause other world leaders to fear him. He shows little regard for the support of women, yet boasts of his various adulterous relationships. Despite his inflated claims, he does possess considerable wealth, which he unabashedly flaunts; wealth accumulated through real estate holdings and building projects. Hailed as the consummate praised man of the city, he is a builder of great high towers, bedecked with precious stones and gold. He is obsessed with his name and plasters it on everything he touches.
      He is cunning and shrewd; playing his enemies like a game of cards. He is vicious in his desire to win. The concepts of grace and forgiveness find no place in him. Violence follows him wherever he goes; even to the killing of innocents who stand between him and his goals. His false show of religion gains the trust of people of faith―deluding them. He comes to power through the “simple folk” who have been discarded as insignificant. His supporters are unwavering in their commitment, for they worship the ground he walks on. His rise to power coincides with a political uprising and defection. Many will leave their former political affiliations.
      His ascension comes at a time of worldwide financial, social, religious, military and civil upheaval. But he will promise to restore law and order, and to soon put an end to crime and violence; a few of many extravagant promises he will never keep. He will establish an extreme vetting process to prevent illegals from gaining access. He will seek the wealth of Iraq as Russia shows signs of escalating military aggression towards the Middle East. Known for his ability to make deals, he promises to make a peace deal between Israel and her surrounding enemies. He plans a restructure of the balance of power in Europe in order to fight terror. The earth will be in global flux.
      Who do these paragraphs describe? This portrait was penned thousands of years ago. It is a biblical word picture of the most evil, ruthless killer of all time; a tyrant who will draw the world into the last great mega-battle known as Armageddon. The Bible refers to this man as the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Wicked One, the Worthless Shepherd, the Beast, the LIE, the Adversary, the Spoiler, the Willful King, the Lawless One, the Desolator, and more. This man’s wickedness grows until, eventually, Satan himself will possess him. He is known to most as the Antichrist. 

      (Copyright 2016 - Jonathan Dane - All Rights Reserved)
    • By Omegaman 3.0
      This one is lengthy, almost 45 minutes, but I think it is worth your time. I found it fascinating and delightful, and should be encouraging and helpful to Christians. I was tempted to put it in the Bible Topics area, there is a not of Bible in it. However it is more of a testimony of the remarkable events of Corrie's life of how she came to be imprisoned in Nazi Germany for hiding Jews from persecution, and her experiences in concentration camps. Did you know fleas and lice, can be a blessing from God, and an ant can give you a sermon?
      There are lessons here, for any who might find themselves in persecution, (real persecution, not merely being ridiculed for your faith at the work place) to see how faith can see us through, should such events ever befall us.
       
       
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