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Suspicion Against Scientists?


thomas t

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Guest shiloh357
17 hours ago, Still Alive said:

It is not essential for those things. I can enjoy Christian living and spiritual growth without ever cracking open a bible. That being said, it is very useful for enhancing both.

 

No, you can't enjoy spiritual growth without reading and studying the Bible.  

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For "A" to be essential to "B", "B" cannot happen without "A". Yeast is essential in the making of wine. An instruction manual is not, though it will almost certainly enhance the quality of the wine.

Without the Bible, spiritual growth cannot happen.

17 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Well, certainly not the ones I've seen created by Chinese writers. :)

It's really just a play on words and concepts I've used for about 30 years. It's an owner's manual for the human body in a sense. But it is used mainly for fun and offering some perspective. No, it is not LITERALLY an owner's manual. But follow its instruction and you will definitely live a better life, both in your human body and after it dies.:)

The Bible is God's plan for how we live.  It is His commandments and promises.  It shows us the way of salvation.   It is not a "users manual." 

17 hours ago, Still Alive said:

According to 2 tim 3:16...

Useful, if you use the NIV:  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...

Profitable, if you use KJV: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Most other versions chose one of those two words. None of them use "essential".

I didn't say it is useful.  I am saying that it is not merely useful.   To teach that the Bible is useful is humanistic and utilitarian.  The Bible is essential for how we live and grow as Christians.   

 

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Guest shiloh357
16 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Yes most would agree, we have some truculent responses missing the point of the context of the original distinction which was essential DOCTRINE, to which I made an obviously unsuccessful attempt to correct the equivocation but alas querulous and truculent are often attended by stubbornness.  At this point, why bother? It may be time to abandon hope of a rational discussion about Essential Doctrine having nothing to do with CANON, or view of sanctification, or view of end times. Your patience outshines my own. 

It has everything to do with the canon.   Anyone who says otherwise knows just enough about theology to be dangerous.

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It is The Word of God that renews my mind to be enabled to do The Will of God in Christ Jesus.... it is literal the formation of my s/Spiritual life for His Glory...

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Getting us back to the original topic of suspicion of science, I suggest that the core problem is not science per se as all beleive that the inductive method implemented in a rigorous way over time (decades, centuries, and millenia), will tend to more accurate explanations of the physical world in which we live. 

 

Politicization is a process where a particular science area has preliminary findings that can be used to support a premise in a political argument. Climate change became politicized in the 1990s. By the first decade of the new millennium we saw Al Gore (inventor of the Internet) claiming that by 2015 or earlier we would see both ice caps melt completely during the summer months and NY City would be under a foot of water.

 

when this didn't happen was the science or political arguments changed to fit the data? No!

 

Science does best when scientist operate inductively rather than deductively.

 

what has happened in the climate field is that PhDs find that they can't even submit a dissertation that suggests that anthropogenic relationships are negligible (humans aren't responsible for climate change in the main).

Further funding at NSF has become much more politically focused under Eugenie Scott. And it remains politicized.

 

So in certain areas of research we see a deductive approach; that is the Professor says, I know humans are the primary cause of climate change, therefore I will model (create a mathematical function that represents a strong relationship between human independent variables and climate change related dependent variables).

 

Further, we see Journals in the field both popular and semi popular are run by likeminded individuals who are suspect of any research that doesn't support their inference. 

 

Then ofcourse we have the media and actors joining politicians in a litany of propaganda about "Settled science," followed by curricula in K-12 teaching settled science and voila, we have cultural bias driving scientific pronouncements much the way the Catholic Church was accused of doing 500 years ago. 

 

How do do we get past such a entangled corruption? I will make some suggestions in a later post.

It is important to recognize that the example above is NOT the rule but rather the exception in science research. The age of the Earth or the existence of dark energy or implications of Everett's inference on how Quantum theory works in our world have no such political uses. Age of universe and cosmological origins are politically efite. So no politician seems to care and much of the nasty deductive anti-science never gets off the ground. 

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3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you can't enjoy spiritual growth without reading and studying the Bible.  

Without the Bible, spiritual growth cannot happen.

The Bible is God's plan for how we live.  It is His commandments and promises.  It shows us the way of salvation.   It is not a "users manual." 

I didn't say it is useful.  I am saying that it is not merely useful.   To teach that the Bible is useful is humanistic and utilitarian.  The Bible is essential for how we live and grow as Christians.   

 

I think we've both exhaustively presented our position and I can confidently say that we disagree on this. I don't think it would be fruitful for either of us to continue, so I'll bow out of this one and let my posts speak for themselves. Thank you.

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20 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

:sherlock:

The

"Our Lord and God! You are worthy to receive glory, honor, and power. For you created all things, and by your will they were given existence and life." Revelation 4:11 (Good News Translation)

Darwinists Are Not Impressed

Whether or not you believe that what has happened on Earth violates the second law, I can’t imagine anything in all of science that is more clear and more obvious than that unintelligent forces alone cannot produce such things as Apple iPhones. But Darwinists are not impressed. They believe that natural selection, alone among all natural causes, can create spectacular order out of disorder, and even produce beings that can write science texts and design computers.

That it seems even superficially plausible (until we think about the details) that selection could create such order out of disorder relies completely on the fact that living things are able to reproduce, that they are able to preserve their complex structures and pass them on to their descendants without significant degradation, generation after generation. Without reproduction, there are no variants to select from. Reproduction is the most fundamental characteristic of life. We see it happen everywhere, so we may feel there is nothing “unnatural” about reproduction. 

Imagine Self-Reproducing Cars

But to appreciate how unnatural the astonishing reproductive abilities of living things really are, imagine trying to design cars that are able to give birth to other cars. Although it is far beyond our current technology, imagine that it were possible to construct a fleet of cars that contained completely automated car-building factories inside, with the ability to construct new cars — and not just normal new cars, but new cars containing automated car-building factories inside them. If we left these cars alone and let them reproduce themselves for many generations, is there any chance we would eventually see major advances arise through natural selection of the resulting duplication errors? 

Of course not. Without intelligent humans there to fix the mechanical problems that would inevitably arise, the whole process would grind to a halt after a few generations. We are so accustomed to seeing animals make copies of themselves without significant degradation that we dismiss this as just another “natural” process. But if we actually saw cars with fully automated car factories inside, making new cars with car factories inside them, maybe we would realize what an astonishing process reproduction really is. “How do these instruction sets not make mistakes as they build what is us?” asks mathematician Alexander Tsiaras in the wonderful TED Talk: https://evolutionnews.org/2018/11/why-evolution-and-reproduction-are-unnatural/

Trouble

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. John 3:16 (Darby Bible Translation)

I’m a professor of nuclear science and engineering at MIT, and I believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.  So do dozens of my colleagues. How can this be?

Hypothesis one: We’re not talking about a literal resurrection. Perhaps it is just an inspiring myth that served to justify the propagation of Jesus’ exalted ethical teachings. A literal resurrection contradicts the known laws of nature. Maybe scientists can celebrate the idea of Jesus’s spirit living on, while his body remained in the grave.

But the first disciples attested to a physical resurrection. How could an untruth logically support high moral character? How could it have sustained the apostles through the extremes of persecution they experienced founding Christianity? And is celebrating a myth consistent with scientific integrity?

Hypothesis two: We really believe in the bodily resurrection of the first century Jew known as Jesus of Nazareth. My Christian colleagues at MIT – and millions of other scientists worldwide – somehow think that a literal miracle like the resurrection of Jesus is possible. And we are following a long tradition. The founders of the scientific revolution and many of the greatest scientists of the intervening centuries were serious Christian believers. For Robert Boyle (of the ideal gas law, co-founder in 1660 of the Royal Society) the resurrection was a fact. For James Clerk Maxwell (whose Maxwell equations of 1862 govern electromagnetism) a deep philosophical analysis undergirded his belief in the resurrection. And for William Phillips (Nobel prize-winner in 1997 for methods to trap atoms with laser light) the resurrection is not discredited by science.

To explain how a scientist can be a Christian is actually quite simple. Science cannot and does not disprove the resurrection. Natural science describes the normal reproducible working of the world of nature. Indeed, the key meaning of “nature”, as Boyle emphasized, is “the normal course of events.” Miracles like the resurrection are inherently abnormal. It does not take modern science to tell us that humans don’t rise from the dead. People knew that perfectly well in the first century; just as they knew that the blind from birth don’t as adults regain their sight, or water doesn’t instantly turn into wine. http://www.veritas.org/can-scientist-believe-resurrection-three-hypotheses/         

With Men

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. Romans 1:18-23 (NET Bible)

Thus, as we see, scientism seeks to elevate the methods of natural science to a level where it is the bar by which every other intellectual discipline is held. Scientism ridicules faith and religion and tells us that “God is dead.” Scientism tells us that the “debate is over,” so shut up and get in line.

And, of course, scientism leads us to technocracy. “I dread government in the name of science,” said Lewis. “That is how tyrannies come in.” What a profound conclusion! How many of us have been duped in the name of “science”?

We can see the results. Generations are taught that life began without God; that the use of fossil fuels is warming the earth; that homosexuality is genetic; that abortion is not really the taking of a life; that confiscating the wealth of some to give to others is “fair;” that guns are evil; and so on. Of course, we then get laws and official government policy based on such conclusions.

Sadly, too many of us then grow accustomed to our chains. We become children, or pupils of the state (like the Obama campaign video featuring “Julia”). We continue to elect leaders who perpetuate the cycle of the “welfare state” based significantly on the lies of scientism.

It’s time for Americans to wake up to this perversion of science and return science, faith, philosophy and, by all means, common sense, to their proper place. https://www.gainesvilletimes.com/columnists/opinion-community-columnists/thomas-technocracy-is-the-allure-of-scientism/

Is Most Lie And Pontificate

The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’  “No! You will not die,” the serpent said to the woman. Genesis 3:2-4 (Christian Standard Bible)

Note: This is Part 7 in a series reviewing Jerry Coyne’s Why Evolution Is True. Read Part 1 here, Part 2 here, Part 3 here, Part 4 here, Part 5 here, and Part 6 here. Coyne writes that Darwin “had little direct evidence for selection acting in natural populations.” Actually, Darwin had no direct evidence for natural selection; the best he could do in The Origin of Species was “give one or two imaginary illustrations.” It wasn’t until a century later that Bernard Kettlewell provided what he called “Darwin’s missing evidence” for natural selection — a shift in the proportion of light- and dark-colored peppered moths that Kettlewell attributed to camouflage and bird predation.

Since then, biologists have found lots of direct evidence for natural selection. Coyne describes some of it, including an increase in average beak depth of finches on the Galápagos Islands and a change in flowering time in wild mustard plants in Southern California — both due to drought. Like Darwin, Coyne also compares natural selection to the artificial selection used in plant and animal breeding.

But these examples of selection — natural as well as artificial — involve only minor changes within existing species. Breeders were familiar with such changes before 1859, which is why Darwin did not write a book titled How Existing Species Change Over Time; he wrote a book titled The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection. “Darwin called his great work On the Origin of Species,” wrote Harvard evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr in 1982, “for he was fully conscious of the fact that the change from one species into another was the most fundamental problem of evolution.” Yet, Mayr had written earlier, “Darwin failed to solve the problem indicated by the title of his work.” In 1997, evolutionary biologist Keith Stewart Thomson wrote: “A matter of unfinished business for biologists is the identification of evolution’s smoking gun,” and “the smoking gun of evolution is speciation, not local adaptation and differentiation of populations.” Before Darwin, the consensus was that species can vary only within certain limits; indeed, centuries of artificial selection had seemingly demonstrated such limits experimentally. “Darwin had to show that the limits could be broken,” wrote Thomson, “so do we.” https://evolutionnews.org/2009/05/selection_and_speciation_why_d/

While Putting  Man's Religion Of Scientism

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 (King James Bible)

Worldview 1: Biblical

One of the most debated questions in history is answered firmly within the first five words of the Bible. “In the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.” Genesis 1:1 The Bible gives a full account of how
God purposefully created the universe as well as our planet, wildlife, and especially us.

Worldview 2: Naturalistic

In brief, Naturalism teaches that the world came about by chance. By accident and the perfect conditions, life slowly evolved from a simple organism to human life today.  This is a brief account of Darwinian Evolution. How life came about is a
theory; the theory is presented as fact.
https://www.fbalions.org/editoruploads/files/Middle School/Copy of BH-Topic 5- Priya Hansen.pdf

Before Creation

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:165 (Kings James Bible)

There is a very sinister idea making the rounds these days, an idea even taught in the schools as the truth. That idea is that science is grounded only in facts and religion is grounded solely in faith in the Bible. Therefore, the theory goes, when it comes to the origin of life, evolution may be taught in the schools, but not creation. The truth is that both of these views are grounded in a huge leap of faith and both claim to be reasonable. The creationist indeed places her faith in intelligent design, and finds in this faith a reasonable explanation of life and its origin. However, the evolutionist also operates by faith: faith in the inexplicable and wholly random origin of something out of nothing! Make no mistake, this is a leap of faith, an astounding assumption not based on any observable facts. For Christians, faith in intelligent design as explanation for the origin of life is far more reasonable than faith in randomness and blind chance.

When it comes to miracles, it is fair to conclude that they lie outside of science, but are not opposed to science. God can and does intervene in history, so scientists (and all of us) do well to be humble in the face of miracle. But Christians (and everybody else as well) also do well not to call something a miracle just because we don’t understand it. When both these positions are understood and accepted, science and the Bible are not at odds. They are both gifts from God.

Let’s remember, too, that the Bible is not a scientific textbook. Although Christians accept the Bible as entirely true, it does not use scientific terminology. After all, it was written thousands of years ago! So it uses terms such as “sunrise” and “sunset”, even though we know that the sun does not rise or set. The Bible is a casebook of divine love and admonition, as well as the very human response of failure and triumph.

So although the Bible is not a scientific treatise, it is our guidebook for life. It teaches us amazement in the face of life’s mysteries. On our sickbed when all the answers of science have been exhausted, we throw ourselves on the hope so wonderfully described in the Bible. We live here by faith and reach for life beyond the grave. In its pages we find the story of our origin and destiny. Has it become your guidebook, too? https://www.biblica.com/resources/bible-faqs/is-the-bible-at-odds-with-science/

~

Look As Long As One May

His love endures forever. to him who alone does great wonders, His love endures forever. who by his understanding made the heavens, His love endures forever. who spread out the earth upon the waters,

His love endures forever. who made the great lights— His love endures forever. the sun to govern the day, His love endures forever. the moon and stars to govern the night; Psalms 135"4-9 (New International Version)

One Will Never Observe, Measure, Or Recreate Evolution

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: Who is this who obscures My counsel by words without knowledge? Now brace yourselfa like a man; I will question you, and you shall inform Me!

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched a measuring line across it?

On what were its foundations laid, or who set its core in place— while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:1-7 (Berean Study Bible)

Upon The Face Of Earth Today Except I n Saturday Morning Cartoons 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9 (American King James Version)

i.e., Your Father Is A Rock And Your Mother Is A Turnip, lol~!
Goofy Racists

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voiceb goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. Psalms 19:1-4 (English Standard Version)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. 

From The Front Of My Gideon Bible

Wnl  Lets keep science simple, you can only discover what God put on earth and all the universe in the beginning.   You CANNOT  discover anything new under the sun to God, because God made all things for man to discover. You can't discover anything that wasn't here in the first place, it's impossible,God wants you to find everything that He made, I believe that discovery will come to an end, that's when I believe Jesus will return by His Holy Spirit  With Love William

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Wnl said:

Wnl  Lets keep science simple, you can only discover what God put on earth and all the universe in the beginning.   You CANNOT  discover anything new under the sun to God, because God made all things for man to discover. You can't discover anything that wasn't here in the first place, it's impossible,God wants you to find everything that He made, I believe that discovery will come to an end, that's when I believe Jesus will return by His Holy Spirit  With Love William

:mgdetective:

Amen~!

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-17

~

Love, Your Brother Joe

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21 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:
22 hours ago, Wnl said:

Lets keep science simple, you can only discover what God put on earth and all the universe in the beginning. 

 

Not at all sure that we should "keep it simple," as you suggest. Jesus, is recorded as growing in wisdom for almost two decade after he intellectually crushed the top Jewish Scholars of his day. Nothing simple there.

 

paul studied for decades before he started writing the epistles, nothing simple there.

 

Studying a hot Big Bang inflationary cosmology is not simple but has pointed to the creation of the universe from nothing which has in turn become an important argument for God's existence known as the Kalam cosmological argument. Further, the fine-tuning of the original constants of physics for life (31 in number currently) form another powerful argument for God's existence known as the fine-tuning argument.

 

I thank God that he has granted me access to the complexity by providing specialist in knowledge areas like astrophysics, and medicine, and ancient Semetic languages and all available on a very complex internet searched by a complex software called scholar Google, etc. etc etc.

 

Millions of atheists worldwide have complexity simplified by Christians helping them understand how all creation testifies of God's existence. I'm not afraid of complexity, rigorous study and the HS will help us understand the scriptures, and there concomitant theological and practical implications. Nothing simple there either. So I'm as yet unconvinced of your hypothesis.

 

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5 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

Not at all sure that we should "keep it simple," as you suggest. Jesus, is recorded as growing in wisdom for almost two decade after he intellectually crushed the top Jewish Scholars of his day. Nothing simple there.

 

paul studied for decades before he started writing the epistles, nothing simple there.

 

Studying a hot Big Bang inflationary cosmology is not simple but has pointed to the creation of the universe from nothing which has in turn become an important argument for God's existence known as the Kalam cosmological argument. Further, the fine-tuning of the original constants of physics for life (31 in number currently) form another powerful argument for God's existence known as the fine-tuning argument.

 

I thank God that he has granted me access to the complexity by providing specialist in knowledge areas like astrophysics, and medicine, and ancient Semetic languages and all available on a very complex internet searched by a complex software called scholar Google, etc. etc etc.

 

Millions of atheists worldwide have complexity simplified by Christians helping them understand how all creation testifies of God's existence. I'm not afraid of complexity, rigorous study and the HS will help us understand the scriptures, and there concomitant theological and practical implications. Nothing simple there either. So I'm as yet unconvinced of your hypothesis.

 

 

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I'm delighted that you thank God for your knowledge 

Your knowledge has to come from somewhere else through the ages, from others or by God Himself, as God still speaks direct to His people as He did in the Bible, so you cannot personally glory in your knowledge.

God has certainly given you a great gift to study deep things in life, you are you because of God.

God didn't give me your gifts, He gave me different gifts of Godly wisdom in the knowledge that all things of knowledge came from Him for us to eventually discover, that's where the word simplicity comes from.

Its simple to God as He already knows everything even the future.

As you know mankind has got their scientific studies wrong in human history, e.g. The world was flat, there is only 140 stars stated by Gallilao etc. we have come along way down discovery alley and we have to get it wrong sometimes to find out the truth of the matter.

God has given His people special gifts as with you, and others artist, sculpture, etc.

I am pleased that you only had a problem with the word simple.

God doesn't have to study as you do, because He knows all things simple isn't it.

With Love in Christ Jesus Wnl

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