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Scott Free

The Great Whore is N.Y.C., Change My Mind

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8 hours ago, Scott Free said:

 I think the Whore as a mercantile coastal city 

Yes! But which city?

I have looked at the busiest ports  and of the top 10, 8 are Chinese. Dubai is #9. New York port is about 1/7 as busy as the port of Shanghai. I find this most interesting as scripture has a focus on a vast, unprecedented condition of trade when the great city is laid waste.

"  And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried,weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!for in one hour is she made desolate."

The highlighted terms mean 'all' or 'every'. How would this be possible? 

Ningbo handled about 900,000,000 metric tonnes of cargo in 2015.  The estimate in 2017 of all container cargo by weight is 183 billion tonnes, 200 times more than the busiest port can process in a year.

If we look at the top Chinese ports, they handle 3.25 billion tonnes a year, still 56 times less than 'all' or 'every'.

I don't think this 'great city' is one that exists today. Or if it does it's a secret.

It's stunning really, ALL sea trade consolidated into a single port? It's mind boggling, ludicrous really. I believe for this city to exist as THE central hub of ALL trade, it will have to be forced by fiat.  That makes sense to me as during this time only those who bear the mark will be able to buy and sell. It will be mandatory to bring the goods to a central processing location. Just imagine the iron fisted control to make this a reality. It's no wonder Jesus said this would be a time like no other ever before, and never again.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yes! But which city?

I have looked at the busiest ports  and of the top 10, 8 are Chinese. Dubai is #9. New York port is about 1/7 as busy as the port of Shanghai. I find this most interesting as scripture has a focus on a vast, unprecedented condition of trade when the great city is laid waste.

There is only one city that has large harbors and is between two rivers. One city with a kingdom over all kings. One city that pollutes the world with the passion of immorality. One city that has the greatest consumer based economy which causes the merchants of the world to grow wealthy from her through the extravagance of her luxury.

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36 minutes ago, Scott Free said:

There is only one city that has large harbors and is between two rivers. One city with a kingdom over all kings. One city that pollutes the world with the passion of immorality. One city that has the greatest consumer based economy which causes the merchants of the world to grow wealthy from her through the extravagance of her luxury.

I know you have this NY thing on your mind. But what about the several cities that fit your description? And where do you get the two rivers? I am not aware of this as scriptural criteria.

 

Edited by Diaste

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The highlighted terms mean 'all' or 'every'. How would this be possible? 

Ningbo handled about 900,000,000 metric tonnes of cargo in 2015.  The estimate in 2017 of all container cargo by weight is 183 billion tonnes, 200 times more than the busiest port can process in a year.

If we look at the top Chinese ports, they handle 3.25 billion tonnes a year, still 56 times less than 'all' or 'every'.

I don't think this 'great city' is one that exists today. Or if it does it's a secret.

Maybe it's not speaking of the volume of goods traded but rather the unrighteous nature of the trade.

  • For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”  Revelation 18:3

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26 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Maybe it's not speaking of the volume of goods traded but rather the unrighteous nature of the trade.

  • For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”  Revelation 18:3

As you often say, there is probably a dual nature. The list:

and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, 

and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies (literally like 'arrogance').

 be not partakers of her sins, 

she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, 

I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously (like 'uncontrolled lust', for anything and everything) with her, 

The above is the spiritual aspect. It's great sin to elevate oneself to such lofty status; and the kings and merchants followed her. 

Here it's hard goods; except for the souls of men.

 for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 

gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, thyine wood,  vessels of ivory,  vessels of most precious wood, brass, and iron, and marble,  cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

There is little doubt the nature of the trade is filthy. Maybe not the nature of buying and selling, nothing inherently evil about trade, but the ends of this scenario are rooted in evil, the arrogance and riot of lust in bacchanalian fashion is terribly wrong.

 And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried,weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!for in one hour is she made desolate.

So it has to be both  

 for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 

By her sorceries....lust of the eyes, lust of flesh, and the pride of life. Comprehensive deception in all three phases.

Edited by Diaste

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

As you often say, there is probably a dual nature. The list:

and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, 

and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies (literally like 'arrogance').

 be not partakers of her sins, 

she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, 

I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously (like 'uncontrolled lust', for anything and everything) with her, 

The above is the spiritual aspect. It's great sin to elevate oneself to such lofty status; and the kings and merchants followed her. 

Here it's hard goods; except for the souls of men.

 for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 

gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, thyine wood,  vessels of ivory,  vessels of most precious wood, brass, and iron, and marble,  cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

There is little doubt the nature of the trade is filthy. Maybe not the nature of buying and selling, nothing inherently evil about trade, but the ends of this scenario are rooted in evil, the arrogance and riot of lust in bacchanalian fashion is terribly wrong.

 And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried,weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!for in one hour is she made desolate.

So it has to be both  

 for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 

By her sorceries....lust of the eyes, lust of flesh, and the pride of life. Comprehensive deception in all three phases.

I don't disagree.  I just don't think you can make a determination of the city's identity based on volume of trade.  I don't see Rev 18 addressing volume but rather the thorough corruption of all.

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21 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I don't disagree.  I just don't think you can make a determination of the city's identity based on volume of trade.  I don't see Rev 18 addressing volume but rather the thorough corruption of all.

Fully agree. I don't see anyone with the insight to make identification possible, at least not at this point. 

I was only making the point that no such city exists, right now, that can satisfy all the criteria. 

Sure, anywhere there are large populations there exists all manner of evil doings. This city will consolidate all the trade and evil behavior, at least that's what I'm seeing. 

 

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On 11/17/2018 at 9:08 AM, Diaste said:

As you often say, there is probably a dual nature. The list:

and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, 

and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies (literally like 'arrogance').

 be not partakers of her sins, 

she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, 

I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously (like 'uncontrolled lust', for anything and everything) with her, 

The above is the spiritual aspect. It's great sin to elevate oneself to such lofty status; and the kings and merchants followed her. 

Here it's hard goods; except for the souls of men.

 for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 

gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, thyine wood,  vessels of ivory,  vessels of most precious wood, brass, and iron, and marble,  cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

There is little doubt the nature of the trade is filthy. Maybe not the nature of buying and selling, nothing inherently evil about trade, but the ends of this scenario are rooted in evil, the arrogance and riot of lust in bacchanalian fashion is terribly wrong.

 And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried,weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!for in one hour is she made desolate.

So it has to be both  

 for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 

By her sorceries....lust of the eyes, lust of flesh, and the pride of life. Comprehensive deception in all three phases.

If we are looking at mystery babylon as described in rev 17 and 18 in context with the present day world system and situation, I would agree with the above, emphasizing the dual nature of her, that is a spiritual and physical entity as Last Daze mentioned earlier also.  As mentioned before, NYC cannot be associated with the aspect of killing of the saints or prophets unless she is linked with the indirect persecution  through the complex source and trade of world goods. The seven mountains becomes a problem, unless as some as done in the past, use symbolism to qualify their position as to what it means.  

The human side of man tend to look at the visible things around them and interpret scripture to match such. With the spiritual side of things, much more is accomplished and influenced that is truly mind boggling if one has had the experience with spiritual warfare and know the influence that spiritual influence have upon men, that creates all kind of lust that eventually drives men to accumulate great wealth ect.  It is through mystery babylon golden cup [spiritual estacy] that men become slaves to her and cannot resist her sensuality like a heroin addict.  

There is an organisation that is the most powerful today and which essentially rules the world behind the scenes, creates policy's and  dictates trade practices behind close doors.  It is not hidden but known and the seven countries known as the G7 has considerable power to alter world trade and commerce. Don't know how this quite fits in here, but it came to mind lately and just thought to throw it out here.

I think, the factor that determines who or what is that great city would be the time period in which rev 17 and 18 takes place.  Is it a definite period of time, say a couple of years that all the scenarios with ports and the world trade develops and a mega city like the one that is going to be built in Saudi Arabia named "Neom".  There is some unknown that may only come to fruition in the future, but as always, this is a time in history that truly put the bible student mind to thought. 

A final word here. If one is looking at present world conditions to associate with mystery babylon, then China cannot be left out as most of the world merchant ships head in and out of there every day.  Almost all the world cheap goods and even not so cheap are manufactured there.  How  China fits in all this is another question to ponder on.

Maybe her identity and conditions are somewhere far in the future or in our  very presence that even the finest minds here are missing.  The Lord is not asleep, and would make it know to all at his chosen time. 

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18 hours ago, warrior12 said:

I think, the factor that determines who or what is that great city would be the time period in which rev 17 and 18 takes place.  Is it a definite period of time, say a couple of years that all the scenarios with ports and the world trade develops and a mega city like the one that is going to be built in Saudi Arabia named "Neom".  There is some unknown that may only come to fruition in the future, but as always, this is a time in history that truly put the bible student mind to thought. 

 I have heard of this before as someone suggested Mecca = Babylon.

I don't have the answers but it is fascinating to ponder; I think we can know where Babylon that great city is located, I just don't know when we could know.

I am of the opinion, as of today, that this city is future and may not be built solely by human hands, or maybe raised up overnight in great power. But it's just speculation.

I have heard stories of entities assisting with some construction projects in recent centuries. Myth? Legend? Maybe.

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On 10/29/2018 at 6:46 AM, Scott Free said:

Look more carefully at the narrative. There is a Great City with a harbor that is between by two rivers. It has a large consumer based economy that is dependent of maritime trade. It is a melting pot of all peoples and tongues. It has a kingdom over all the kings of the earth, the UN. It defeats and dominates the Dragon, WWII. The list goes on. When New York is placed up to the prophecy everything lines up perfectly with no contradiction. This can not be said of Rome, Vatican City, Jerusalem, Iraq or a mysterious False Religion.

 

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