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PRE, MID or POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE?


LivingbyFaith

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1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Who do you say he is?

He is a Hindu and a false prophet please don't fall for this false teaching of him and read the Bible for your self ,do you go to a good Bible believing church?

He was from a hinduism religion but was saved and became a follower of Christ.. have you heard his testimony?? Or at least, watched his videos on youtube.. GOD BLESS. 

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1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Who do you say he is?

He is a Hindu and a false prophet please don't fall for this false teaching of him and read the Bible for your self ,do you go to a good Bible believing church?

You may read his testimony here in this link: http://www.jesusministries.org/aboutus_2.php?reloaded=true

 

GOD BLESS

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1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Who do you say he is?

He is a Hindu and a false prophet please don't fall for this false teaching of him and read the Bible for your self ,do you go to a good Bible believing church?

And this Is what scares me so for this generation .   SIS, you would be amazed at the lies being bought today ,  that a christain can still be a budist or hindu or muslim

or new age , or whatever .    NOPE , either we christain or we aint .  but we cant be both .     But you would stagger backwards that this generation .

I mean ya would fall out of your chair .   SIS , its bad .   folks not only believing that a christain can be muslim or etc , heck they believing GOD is in all those religions .

DARN frightening if ya ask me .     I am worried huge for so many .    All we can do , is what the church has always done ,  PREACH the true gospel and correct

and the rest is up to them . 

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40 minutes ago, SisterCess said:

He was from a hinduism religion but was saved and became a follower of Christ.. have you heard his testimony?? Or at least, watched his videos on youtube.. GOD BLESS. 

Does he openly admit the hindu religion IS FALSE .    if not , he is in serious trouble and going with this new inclusive mindset .   

A real conversion .  WHEN that occurs ,  and IT does ,    a muslim will tell ya , I AINT no muslim NOW , I know its false , AND JESUS ONLY SAVES .   same with any other mindset .

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14 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Does he openly admit the hindu religion IS FALSE .    if not , he is in serious trouble and going with this new inclusive mindset .   

A real conversion .  WHEN that occurs ,  and IT does ,    a muslim will tell ya , I AINT no muslim NOW , I know its false , AND JESUS ONLY SAVES .   same with any other mindset .

Even ex-muslims would say islam is a false religion so Sadhu would say the same thing to hinduism.. he will never come out of that false religion and become a follower of Christ if he still believes that hinduism is true and still practices it.. 

Have you heard about him before and his preachings? At least try it and you'll learn a lot from him.. 

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On 10/31/2018 at 12:02 AM, LivingbyFaith said:

Hi there, 

Just wondering...which rapture do you believe in - pre, mid or post tribulation and why?

I believe in the post tribulation rapture as Jesus says in His Word;

 

 

 

Hi livingbyfaith.....

There are 3 primary scriptures that tell us when the “Rapture” occurs. There are many other scriptures that tell us “about” the Rapture, but not about its timing. So, if we can figure out the timing of the rapture, according to scripture, then the pre, mid,  post  will all fall into place, or be eliminated.

1) The Wrath of God is the key , “For God hath not appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”….1 Thes 5:9

The Wrath of God does not begin until God’s Word says it begins.

“ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand”…Rev 6:17

This verse states that on a specific  great day”, the wrath of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will begin.

Let’s pick it up in Rev 6:12-17:

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the [a]commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the [b]presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Look at what it doesn’t say…..It doesn’t say that their wrath had already commenced.

It does say that the GREAT DAY OF THEIR WRATH HAS COME

Also, they were hiding in the caves and amongst the rocks and asking them to “Fall on us and Hide us” from the Face of Him who sits on the throne.  No one asks to be hidden under rocks from something that started years earlier. This is a nonsense statement that no one would make. People only ask to be hidden from what they perceive to be a present danger and at its inception.

The Wrath of God begins AFTER Jesus opens  the sixth seal. This is indisputable based on Scripture!

2) EYE WITNESSES:……

1) The inhabitants of the earth in Rev 6:17 testify as to the timing of the initiation of the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Wrath, as shown above.

2) The martyrs under the altar……Rev 6:10 “ They cried out with a loud voice saying “ How long O Lord holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth”

This right here precludes all five of the first seals from being God’s Wrath.

3) Joel 2:31…” The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes”

Matt 24:29…..” But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

4) Matt 24:31….. “ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other”

Is this the SECOND COMING or the RAPTURE?

Many pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib  rapture theorists consider Matt 24:31 as the same event as Rev 19:11-16. But is it?

Look at the graph….

Area of Comparison

1 Thess. 4-5

Matt. 24

Rev.19

 

Called a "coming"

Yes

4:15

Yes

24:27,37,39

No

 

 

Refers to a resurrection

Yes

4:16

Yes

24:31

No

 

 

Likened to birth pains

Yes

5:3

Yes

24:8

No

 

 

Sinners are referred to as "drunk"

Yes

5:7

Yes

24:49

No

 

 

Presence of angels

Yes

4:16

Yes

24:31

No

 

 

Trumpet of God

Yes

4:16

Yes

24:31

No

 

 

Jesus is specified as being in the clouds

Yes

4:17

Yes

24:30

No

 

 

Jesus gathers the elect together

Yes

4:17

Yes

24:31,                      Mark 13:27

No

 

 

Direction of the gathering of righteous is up

Yes

4:17

Yes

24:31,                      Mark 13:27

No

19:14 Elect descend with Jesus

 

Timing unknown

Yes

5:1

Yes

24:36

No

 

 

Comes as a thief

Yes

5:2,4

Yes

24:43

No

 

 

Takes unrepentant by surprise

Yes

5:2

Yes

24:36-39

No

Rev 16:14  Satan/Antichrist aren't surprised

 

Followed by fiery judgment

 

 

Yes

Ref to Rev 8:7

No

No fire falls at Armageddon

 

Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

 

 

Yes

Trumpet and Bowls are not mentioned

No

Must occur after the Trumpets and 6 of the Bowls

 

Jesus' Robes

 

 

Yes

Consistent with Jesus' robes being stained in Rev 19:15

No

Jesus' robes were stained prior to Rev 19:13, 15

 
             

 

Looking at the chart, we see that the first 11 comparisons are consistent between 1Thes and Matt 24, and the final 6 comparisons absolutely prohibit Matt 24 and Rev 19 from being the same events.

Mathew 24:29-31 HAS to be referring to either the Rapture or the Second Coming; there are no other choices!

Scripture is clear: There is only ONE Second Coming!

Jesus’ return is indicated by four different terms:

1) Erchomai, which is “come” It is a generic word and is found 637 times in the New Testament,

2) Apokalupto, which means “uncovering or revealing”. Jesus can only be revealed to the world ONE TIME. This is a singular event.

3).Epiphaneia, which means “appearing” or more specifically the “appearing of a god”

4) Parousia, is a semi-technical term, which in the Middle East of Jesus’ day meant “visit of a royal dignitary or official”

Rev 19:11-16 isn’t called any of these terms. Jesus had already “come” prior to that event. Both 1Thes and Matt 24 ARE termed the “coming” or the “parousia” or “royal visit”

“We who are alive and remain until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep”…..1Thes 4:15

“ For just as lightening comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be”…….Matt 24:27

PAROUSIA is used in both passages. The term is singular and is preceded by the definite article “THE”. They are both “THE” parousia or coming of Jesus; the one and only coming.

3) IMMINENCE……Can the Rapture occur at any time?

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”……Matt 24:19-20

In this prophetic passage, Jesus is   promising Christians that He will be with them until the end of the age.

“Tell us, when will these thing occur and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?.....Matt 24:3

Jesus responds with two references:

“you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end”…Matt 24:7

“ This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come”…..Matt 24:8

Jesus is very clear. He will be with us, the church, until the end. This clearly shows that Christians will be present in the Tribulation.

“ The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age”….Matt 13:39-40

Jesus is clear that at the end of the age, the unrepentant will be burned with fire. This event occurs on the Day of the Lord with fire falling at the first trumpet judgment. Jesus promises to be with His Church until that time. Therefore His Church is present on the earth until the trumpet judgments begin.

So what about…..” but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”….Matt 24:36

The end of the Tribulation period is believed by most to occur a set number of days (1260)  after the Abomination of Desolation. After that horrible event, the end of the Tribulation will be a known day and thus cannot qualify for the Rapture which must be an unknown day.                                                                                    

But Jesus tells us that for the sake of Christians, and only Christians, those days will be cut short, so they won’t be present the entire 1260 days:

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short”…..Matt 24:22

Most Christians mistranslate the verse  in Matt 24:36 as saying…”no one knows the day or the hour”

But the Bible actually states…”of that day and hour no one knows”    Linguistically, it must refer back to the last day that Jesus mentioned. It cannot refer to a pretribulation rapture under any circumstance. It must refer back to Matt 24:31, the last day that Jesus mentioned:

“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other”…..Matt 24:30-31

Also….”Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming”….Matt 24:42

             “The Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will”….Matt 24:44

So, Matt 24:30-31 is not the physical Second Coming as pretrib believes, and it has nothing to do with the end of the Tribulation.

IT IS THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, AND THAT IS WHY IT WILL OCCUR ON AN UNKNOWN DAY!

 Excerpts from the book...."Simplifying the Rapture" by Nelson Walters

 

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Apostle John saw two groups of people in heaven

FIRST GROUP : The great multitude before the Throne, THEY ARE NOT SOULS but living people.

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

 

SECOND GROUP : SOULS under the Altar, waiting for their fellows.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

THOSE SOULS MUST WAIT UNTIL THEIR FELLOWS/TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE ALSO MARTYRED IN THE 7 YEARS TRIBULATION OF THE WORLD.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So we will belong to one of these 3 groups of people in the grief tribulation :

-Those who are raptured alive to heaven as the 1st group

-To be martyred in the tribulation if refuse to worship the beast and their souls to be gathered under the Altar

-To worship the beast like the rest of the world in the grief tribulation.

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On 10/31/2018 at 2:02 AM, LivingbyFaith said:

Hi there, 

Just wondering...which rapture do you believe in - pre, mid or post tribulation and why?

I believe in the post tribulation rapture as Jesus says in His Word;

I know this topic is very important to most believers. To finally be taken home to the presence of our creator, for an eternity of .....heaven.
I do not debate this one, as there are so many very knowledgeable men and women very gifted in understanding scripture, yet not agreeing. The only way I can make sense of it, is I remember it is said, only God knows when, and be ready. Most here do not ride in the bus to go somewhere, but I have as a kid. When the bus comes, it doesn't wait for those with no ticket. So, I have my ticket, I am ready, and I will wait for God's good pleasure. But I enjoy listening/learning to the debate.......(I'm more excited about what it will be like when we get there)

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On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 3:02 AM, LivingbyFaith said:

Hi there, 

Just wondering...which rapture do you believe in - pre, mid or post tribulation and why?

I believe in the post tribulation rapture as Jesus says in His Word;

MATTHEW 24:3-35

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29“Immediately after the distress of those days

“ ‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ b

30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it e is near, right at the door.34Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

 

All of the above could be, doesn't matter what vehicle takes me. Just to go is great.

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On 11/3/2018 at 3:05 PM, OldCoot said:

Well, Matthew 24 says that those who see the abomination of desolation need to flee. Well, I don't live in Judea,  so I am pretty sure that doesn't apply to me.  

And the elect of Matthew 24, given the context of Judea, seems more likely to be the elect that Isaiah talks about... 

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And I am quite confident that Matthew 25 has nothing to do with me either.

All one has to do is a detailed study on the ancient Jewish marriage to get a grasp on the 10 virgins parable.  They are not the bride of Messiah for one.  And the text (at least in the Greek) states that the marriage feast/banquet is going on.  In the ancient Jewish marriage, that occurs 7 days after the groom has taken his bride to the marriage chamber/chupah and they have consummated the marriage. Then they emerge and the marriage feast/banquet begins.  The virgins are akin to the bridesmaids of a marriage.

And the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the redeemed either.  The nations are gathered and judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren.  Yeshua is Hebrew, of the tribe of Judah.  His brethren are the Hebrew people, not the Church.  How do I know this?   The story is a expository lecture on Joel 3.  And Yeshua is giving that lecture right on the spot where He will judge the nations... the Mount of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

Joel 3:1-3  For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,

Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.
3 “They have also cast lots for My people,
Traded a boy for a harlot
And sold a girl for wine that they may drink.

So, since all these things seem to have nothing to do with the redeemed before the GT period, then it doesn't seem likely that the redeemed Church is part of that. 

And there are lots of passages in the OT that say the righteous are hidden/protected from that period, some passages going to far as to say hidden in the Tabernacle of YHVH.  Psalms 27:5 (which refers to Jeremiah 30:7) says that..

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

And compare what Yeshua says...

John 14:1-3  Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

To this.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;

Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

And it just seems so outside the nature and character of YHVH to allow the redeemed to go thru that period.  Why would YHVH allow the Body of Messiah be beaten and killed since they have been redeemed by the beating and killing of Yeshua?   After all, the redeemed are made righteous by the covering atonement of Yeshua.  All the Father sees when He looks at a redeemed person is His Son.   The idea that those redeemed must go thru the period reeks of flagellation stuff people do in some sort to vain attempt to feel worthy.  Or what could also be some sort of "protestant purgatory" type of thing.  And it borders on a pride thing.

At the very least, it sounds like a lack of understanding of what redemption thru Messiah is, and also a lack of understanding what that period is about and who it is intended for.

Please tell me then, why are there so many Christians all over the world, right now (today), who are being killed for their faith in Christ?  Why are they being persecuted and killed if the Lord doesn't and won't allow His redeemed to go through TRIBULATION AND SUFFERING??

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