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How to remain sensible in debate


enoob57

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The common sense of writing:
If I write something down it is for communicating specifics from myself to another... all one must do is break down those specifics and you have the rules of writing and others that follow those rules will receive that message as intended... by throwing the work back upon God and out of context I might add... you have successfully changed the meaning and intent of Author about what was written! 
Case in point:

John 16:12-16

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
   Who Jesus is speaking to is the disciples at that moment in time of then and there
    and the reason Jesus cannot speak anymore on the subjects Jesus had in mind.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
  Who Jesus is speaking of, The Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit's mission to disciples
 
  to the specifics of delivery of all truth to them

for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
              The mission of The Holy Spirit is intermediation for the purpose to show the Disciples of things to come

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
       Purpose of the mission of The Holy Spirit and how that purpose will work

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
       It will entail The Father Will and The Son as source and this revelation comes to Disciples by The Holy Spirit

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
           The proof of all Jesus has spoken of will be objectively witnessed by them in death and resurrection 
KJV

So what is called the immediate context the who, what, when, where, why and how is established by rules of grammar period... Red with the rules of grammar applied and anything outside of this is out of the written context of what is written and cannot be by the authority of what is written! This is why it is objective and anyone can come to this place (in all times and cultures) and receive the very same thing in intent of writing... anything and I mean anything outside of the immediate context that violates this immediate context is not of God's Word but other... So if you are saying this is speaking directly to us Those who yield to the authority of Scripture will disagree because of The Scripture.... all satan  wants to do is move the reliance upon The Written Word, (that which The Holy Spirit has inspired), to other and satan's task of usurping God's Authority has been completed...  
 

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11 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Exactly .    and anytime the scriptures say something so plain and clear , YET if it contradicts THIER OWN man taught theology , THEY SAY you doing sloppy hermanutics .

YEAH .   THEY do that .

an example .,  remember where both peter and paul TALK about HAVING BEEN MADE ACTUAL PARTAKERS of THE HOLY GHOST and then they fell away,

SAYS it VERY Plain , BUT herumetics and context , SURE SEEM TO TWIST IT , TO FIT OSAS HERMUNETICS ONE O ONE .   I SHUN mans ways .    ALL we need IS THE HOLY SPIRIT .

THEY WROTE LETTERS TO CHURCHS , NOT SECRETE CODES ONLY HERMUENTICS CAN HELP YA UNDERSTAND .  NOPE I shun herumentics to the pits of the abyss.

TO the pits . I want nothing , nothing to do withit .

HOLY GHOST  .      Let the people mock ,   I GOT MY HOPE .      NOW raise those hands up and SOUND OUT CONTNOUS PRAISES to the LORD .

 

It is a choice to let Scripture from The Holy Spirit in written format be the actual authority or other...  the difference being one is of God the other is not...

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10 hours ago, Yowm said:

When people use sloppy ways of interpretation it is a reflection on them and not sound principles of hermeneutics. Remember, everyone uses hermeneutics, even yourself, it's just that some methods of interpretation are sounder than others. 

Yes ,   I fully agree that some methods of interpretation are sounder than others  .      Thanks for that reminder .

Now , while we on this lets ponder something .    Who inspired the Bible and the letters the apostles wrote as well.

We all agree GOD DID .   That HE , through the SPIRIT inspired those men .   For Holy men of God , SPOKE BY the SPIRIT .

And in the letters the apostels wrote ,   they too were inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT .

So ,   that same HOLY SPIRIT will give us all the understanding we need , when we read what was inspired BY that same SPIRIT .

For if one is led of GOD ,   God will give all things that are needeful to that person to grow in grace , learn and be well fed .

You be encouraged yowm.    And no matter what any one writes or says ,  we are to test what was written or said , against sound biblical doctrine

BY the SPIRIT who gives each member as they have need .     I say , JUST TRUST GOD , HE gives and will give as we have need and the exact TIMING HE SEES we have such need .

Trusting in GOD is a beauty that brings peace that the world cannot understand .   You be encouraged yowm.   

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man: but I just trusted God....     God: I wrote it all down...   

Ezek 12:25

25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

 

We don't even have to guess which God accepts....

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1 minute ago, enoob57 said:

It is a choice to let Scripture from The Holy Spirit in written format be the actual authority or other...  the difference being one is of God the other is not...

I Completely agee.     AND WHO INSPIRED the apostels letters as well as the bible .    Well, you already KNOW GOD did .

SO simply trust in HIM , like a small child ,   and HE WILL give us as we have need to learn and grow in grace .

Their are mindsets .    But the only mindset we need trust , IS the mind of Christ .   Now I bet you agree with that .

IF people , being evil can give good gifts unto their own children ,  THEN HOW much MORE will GOD give us , if we simply ask and believe .

I fully believe that .     IF we ask , according TO HIS WILL,,   then we will receive .   And Gods will is that we learn and grow in grace .

So if we are truly born of HIM ,   will he not give us wisdom , understanding , knowledge OF the very scriptures , BY the SPIRIT  when we ask and have need .

YOU bet HE WILL.     And always must we test what anyone brings .    now be encouraged Boone 75

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2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

man: but I just trusted God....     God: I wrote it all down...   

Ezek 12:25

25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV

guess which God accepts?

A man can SAY , I trust in GOD ,  but if he trusts not the scriptures which GOD inspired ,  then HOW does he truly trust GOD .

HE don't .    But thanks for the reminder .    

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Paul made it very clear that even if one understands all knowledge and mysteries (including scripture) -- can move mountains, has all faith . . . and does NOT have LOVE (Grk. agape; i.e., "divine and sacrificial love") . . . then he/she has NOTHING (1 Cor. 13:2). The very next verse in context of that passage sums it all up: This type of "love" is long-suffering, kind, is not envious, and puts others "before" themselves, etc.  Some of the other Christian message boards are a complete mess; and nobody wants to submit to the Truth even when it is presented in an irrefutable manner. 1 Peter 3:15 commands us to give an "answer" (Grk. apologia -- where we get "apologetics" from) to anyone who asks us why we are Christians with "meekness" and "godly" reverence. There are several reasons as to why most Christian online communities are in such a mess (Note: not this one as far as I can tell; you guys are awesome!), and they are:

  • 1. Their mind is already made up; so no amount of truth can change their scriptural viewpoint.
  • 2. Pride. Most people do NOT want to admit that they are in the "wrong" -- especially if they feel that they are to be held to a "higher" standard.
  • 3. They have been indoctrinated by clever, deceitful false teachers who are adroit at twisting and perverting scripture as Satan had done when he was tempting Jesus -- and failed miserably!
  • 4. They are completely "devoid" of any fruits of the Spirit (i.e., "love, joy, peace, gentleness") -- so the one who is to be rebuked for their false teachings will not submit to the truth regardless, because all they see is a self-professed "Christian" who is a BAD example at best.
  • 5. Said person doing the debating has NOT done their "home work". They are not "workmen" approved by God who knows how to "rightly divide" the TRUTH (2 Tim. 2:15).

I make it a personal habit to "pray" every time before I open up my Bible; and before I engage in any discussion with another Christian who may be on the wayward path -- or has not matured enough spiritually to undersand such precious truth's contained in Scripture. We need to care for these younger brothers and sisters in Christ, and nurse them by first giving them the "milk" of the Word. We are to do this with meekness, love, gentleness and humility. I can honestly say that I do not always pass the test, and we are all in this same "boat" in this journey of life -- and we are just passing through. Moreover, we are to instruct others and to do it heartily for the LORD -- and not to win approval from men (Col. 3:1).

In closing:

Nobody is correct in every single truth contained in scripture. And nobody is NEVER wrong at some point or another; and such mentality of those who believe that they are never wrong is evident that this person is puffed-up, self-centered, and is deceiving himself or herself. This type of person will never increase in wisdom and knowledge according to the Bible; because they feel as if they have "arrived", and cannot be taught any thing more than what they already know (i.e., "everything" about the Word of God.). These people are ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). And lastly: straining at gnats that only sow discord, and not focusing on the essentials of the Christian doctrines only hinders the spiritual progress of those who are truly desiring to do so; and such is to be done with humility, patience, and love (cf. Acts 19:9; Rom. 14:1; 1 Cor. 14:26; 2 Cor. 12:20; Col. 2:1-23; 2 Tim. 2:14; 3:16; 4:2; 1 Thess. 2:13; Tit. 2:7; 3:9; Jude 1:3; et al.). Hope this helps!

In Christ, *Pumpkin*

 

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11 hours ago, Butero said:

If hermeneutics was the definitive way to test the spirits, everyone using it would always come to the same conclusions, and they don't.  You just have one person accusing another person of sloppy hermeneutics.  All testing the spirits means is making sure a teaching doesn't go against what is in the Bible.  For example, if someone teaches there are many ways to be saved, and faith in any religion will get you to heaven, I know that is not true because the Bible says Jesus is the only name given whereby we must be saved.  

This is very poor logic saying the system is at fault when we are told the devil wants to confuse and destroy and there is no defense against it except by standing exactly upon The Scriptures, for they are inspired and directly from God, thus the system is not at fault but men who do not follow it accurately... and the thing you are using, above, is to arrive at the conclusion you have arrived at is hermeneutics / contextual literary analysis... whether you like it or not it is just fact! You said there was nothing indicated in Scripture of the hermeneutic principles and that is not true
as I have already quoted it

Isa 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
KJV


this principle is to know as Scripture interprets Scripture and is in line with accurate reasoning: For it is describing truth gleaned in one portion of Scripture will remain that truth in other places where more is found on the subject and the combining result will continue on as both being what they were where they were at (context)= immediate, surrounding verses, chapter, book, testament new or old (depending on where the verse is), entire Bible... If God's foundation, The Word, is all that God is keeping along with the souls of men then it is reasonable that it is the only source by which we continue with God into the eternal state... all else is not trustworthy for it is not kept by God as such! This is not rocket science and contains self evident truth... example: You write something down and examine everything that is there and why and you have developed a hermeneutic in the purpose of that which is written! All writing exist in this scenario because it is communication of one Beings intent to another being... if you make this mystical the word itself becomes moot to this purpose of writing... and it is the Scripture that test all things whether of God or not for The Holy Spirit through written format delivers the intent of God to man....

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10 hours ago, Butero said:

If what you are saying is true, nearly every person who reads the Bible is using hermeneutics without having any diagrams or knowing any rules.  They do it automatically by simply trying to understand the Bible, so why do we need charts or laws of interpretation if we are doing it already?  I have never knowingly followed a system of hermeneutics because until Shiloh kept throwing the word around, I didn't know what it was, yet everyone keeps saying I am using it without realizing it.  That brings up the question as to who is not using hermeneutics?  I would imagine there may be some, but I can't think of many in my circle of friends.  

You are getting the simple gist of written material and the purpose thereof... the reason a system is needed is like all else- relying on a error to arrive at truth can only distribute further error and like there is only One God so there is only one truth and God through objective means -written communication-  has delivered that complete truth to us all through all time 100 AD to now an onward... this is why God has place a seal on the Revelation it covers  what was (OT period in Scripture and letters circulating around the churches of that time), the is (The New Testament letters in circulation at that specific point and time, which was everything up and to the Revelation), and the will be all the way through to the eternal state Rev 4 and on to the seal... How I know this is true because God 'IS' not keeping any of the 1st creation formed by His Spoken Word but 'IS' maintaining His Written Word till all is fulfilled that being the eternal state onward where all things are possible with no sin present. This is also why I know that the Word alone receives all priorities to life now for it is to be fulfilled to the nth degree in all that is said … this alone should be the motivation to study, meditate, all mind, all strength, all heart the precepts that lie within to a pin pointed unity called truth... this referring to The Living Lord and the written Word by The power of The Holy Spirit perfectly aligned to arrive at knowing Jesus by faith totally built from the precepts within His Word and Living Unction of The Holy Spirit of God.

To answer your second Who is not using … all camps and persuasions when they leave what is written to maintain personal or community adherence of that which cannot be found in the hermeneutic... satan's efforts are always focused on the created instance for that is all he has to work with... we gave it to him when we followed his word (lie) instead of God's Word (truth) and herein is the battle to depart from lie and return to truth and that truth is pure when it follows the written Word as it was given in the intent formed from that writing... The Holy Spirit in us, who believe, and have the new being within have a place to keep that truth undefiled. It is by the promise of God we are kept and we work to make sure by 'The Study' of Scriptures that which is only of Him is relied upon or else we will suffer loss (if we have what we will not let go of... then in the fire of God testing it burns up then we will experience the sense of loss - however immediately we will be of purer heart and the joy of this nearness to God by purity will cease all sense of loss)... The resource of the Word takes us to a place of waiting, child like and without ability to continue  because this is true

1 John 3:2

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
KJV


combined with this 
 

1 Cor 2:9-16

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
KJV


We arrive as far as we can go in this place- personal witness of what:
I know that which is within me belongs to God both by what is written and where I am >by what I value<... For The Holy Spirit through the written Word has brought me to a place that none of my senses can be exercised therein as it is formed outside of fleshly sensual means to identify with- thus fulfilling: eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man... yet because it is formed by written Word and s/Spiritual substance by The Holy Spirit of God I am willing to trade absolutely all that I have, experientially since I began, for the hope of that which 'IS' promised upon which I cannot even know at this time...  undoubtedly to those of us who have Him within this is resonating with you right now; for it is the excited fact of faith undefiled that fades not away - for if in essence this is true within then there only remains the question -> what can be taken from us of this place that would mean more to us? The reality of now and it's value(this present world and my flesh) is made moot by the promise...
 

Heb 11:1-6

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV


It is by The Spoken and written Word whereby I am and it is The Written Word I am 'IS' being brought into the sanctification and unity of I AM that I AM and nothing of this place can take me from this! For it must overthrow The Father, The Son and The holy Spirit to do so... Love, Steven

 

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On 11/2/2018 at 3:40 PM, Christine said:

How to remain sensible in debate?

Hello there,

I have learned by experience, some of that painful, to keep personality out of the debate: and if negative or personal comment is made, to ignore it and stick to the subject in hand.  

* The 'Green Cross Code' used to teach children how to cross the road safely is a good guide too ☺️:-

Stop 
Look  & Listen (before committing yourself and then )  
Go 

* Ask God to help you of course.

* Then this is a good guide to the understanding of a passage, from Miles Coverdale, the Bible Translator, (written in Old English ):-

'It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures 
if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, 
but of whom and to whom
with what words
at what time
where,
to what intent
with what circumstances
considering what goeth before 
and what followeth after.' 
 

With love in Christ Jesus

Chris

 

Hello again,

The opening lines of a poem by Rudyard Kipling, entitled, 'I Keep Six Honest Serving Men', are used as a teaching aid: and are appropriate to the question of the thread, because they stay the mind upon the facts presented in God's Word, and prevent the mind from straying into conjecture and vain imaginings:-

'I Keep six honest serving-men
(they taught me all I knew),
Their names are, 'What' and 'Why' and 'When',
And 'How' and 'Where' and 'Who'.'

In Christ Jesus

Chris

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