Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Sure..........the Rapture is all through the bible, its on you that you can't see it, it's on no one else. You guys use scriptures like this in illogical ways and still can't make a case for post trib. All one has to do is read Rev. 19 and they know the Church is Married in Heaven before Jesus returns to defeat the Beast on earth. Straining at a gnat is not going to change the facts brother. 

I don't doubt the 'rapture', by which you mean 'gathering of the elect' or, 'us to him' or, 'caught up'; as the term 'rapture' appears no where in the Greek text, and only is called such by doctrines of man; it's the timing proposed by the doctrine to which you hold that I doubt. Strike that, the timing proposed by the doctrine to which you hold I know is wrong. So wrong that to consider it's existence as truth means less to me than the existence of unicorns. I'm more apt the believe in Bigfoot than the timing of a 'pretrib rapture'.

In Rev 19, an event which you cite as proof in every rebuttal to the doctrine of man which you hold provides no timing for 'rapture'. It's a hope on your part engineered by the false doctrine of pretrib.

Two places in scripture tell us timing: 2 Thess 2; after the revealing of the beast at the A of D; Matt 24:29-30, Immediately after the tribulation of those days....; and these two agree fully with each other.

No other places in scripture show timing of the gathering of the elect, caught up or, us to him. Meaning this is a post A of D gathering of the elect, or pre-wrath gathering, and not any other.

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

This is why using Paul's "LETTERS" as holy writ I never got, sure it is word from God,

And this mindset is the main reason you lack understanding. "Sure it is word from God' you say, and then discount that word as nothing. I do hope you come to your senses someday and cease this foolishness.

[frienduff thaylorde]

18 minutes ago, Diaste said:

And this mindset is the main reason you lack understanding. "Sure it is word from God' you say, and then discount that word as nothing. I do hope you come to your senses someday and cease this foolishness.

mir auch diaste .   

Jesus says more than once ,  WHEN the SON OF MAN shall be REVEALED from heaven .

If folks would read that second letter to the thesslonians in the second chapter it begins with THE DAY OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM .

Then all paul says is what must occur BEFORE JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN .     So now youknow CHURCH what withholds , what is left , what must occur

BEFORE JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN .     And lets read of all that .  an anti Christ rises to power , proclaims to be God or as god ,  

WHOME JESUS destroys AT HIS COMING .     If we examine the first chapter

we clearly see when we are given rest    , IS when JESUS comes for us and AT the same time is laying down wrath against them who did so persecute .

Its so clear .   NOW armour up folks and let us not fear to be persecuted or even to die for the LORD .    For not only shall we have tribulation in this world ,

ITS a manifest token , sign , OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDMGENT of GOD that we be counted worthy for the kingom which we suffer .

BUT on the day of the LORD we are caught up and the wrath of GOD will come against the beast , his kingdom , all who took his mark , whose names were not in the lambs

book of life .     And how clear and simple this is to see and understand . 

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM....

You are assuming that Paul is telling them WHO/WHAT it is that WITHHOLDS.

There is nowhere is Scripture that tells us WHO/WHAT the Restrainer that Withholds is. Nowhere!

There have been many guesses: The Church....The Holy Spirit....Michael the Archangel....etc.

Pick any one.....it will only be a guess!

 

Paul was telling them what withholds .    the thing is they forget He was talking about the LORDS DAY and our being gathered unto HIM .

When paul said so now you know what withholds ,     He wasn't talking about what withholds the son of perdtion ,  

He was talking about what must come to pass , before JESUS IS REVELAED FROM HEAVEN .    folks aint reading it right .

HE did not start that part with let no man deceive you about the coming of ANTI CHRIST ,   HE SAID CHRIST

HE said OUR gathering unto HIM .      And yet they claim we aint reading it in text .  NO they are not and have allowed men to twist stuff .

 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:10 PM, Diaste said:

And this mindset is the main reason you lack understanding. "Sure it is word from God' you say, and then discount that word as nothing. I do hope you come to your senses someday and cease this foolishness.

No, this mindset is what separates real prophecy wonks from the average Christian not called unto Prophecy. When the Prophets of God said "Thus saith the Lord" it had to be 100 percent factual and 100 percent legible so it would be congruent to the masses. You can't take a letter, which was a reply, and understand it in full without the other letter he is replying unto. Now if the writer knew his letters were going to be used as Holy writ he would have expounded on each subject and clarified things, that is just a fact. Where he says YOU KNOW WHAT I TOLD YOU WHEN I WAS WITH YOU........Would have been, here is what we discussed before and this is why I told you that !! You don't purposely leave something hanging where Satan can move in, like he has with 2 Thess. 2 and confuse people with lies and half truths. Just the fact that we have so many different beliefs on what the WITHHOLDER is proves my point, the letters of Paul were never intended to be Holy writ or he would have clarified these things unto us, they were letters between friends, brothers. You take any set of letters between people, take out some of the letters and you will not get a full perspective on what they are speaking about. 

"It is word of God" only means if you got like say 8 chapters of Daniel it would still be the word of God, but not the full word of God. Of course God taught Paul in Heaven, or in Spirit, so whatever he says is OF GOD..........But it still needs to be understood via all the contextual forms he was speaking in etc. etc. etc.

If we didn't get Daniel chapter 2 then we would be somewhat hindered in Dan. ch. 7 etc. etc. If we only got 11 chapters of the book of Revelation then we would be greatly hindered. If Paul had a video where he taught us this great teaching and he made three tapes and 2 were missing, we would not get his full teaching !! We got snippets of what he spoke of with these people, we don't have his teachings in full unto them, things are not expounded on in full.

What if we could go back to the time he was teaching them in person and Paul is saying, the Church will not go through the Wrath of God (like he says elsewhere) and then when he tells them in Thessalonians  (2 Thess. 2) that thy will DEPART and be gathered unto Jesus BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes forth OR the Day of the Lord comes upon the world.........KEY HERE is both are simultaneous events. The Beast and Day of the Lord are the SAME EVENT, that is why Paul uses them both. The Wrath of God starts with the Beast coming forth, but if we could go back and here his actually words that he said, you know when I was with with you I told you such and such a thing..........we would understand exactly what he was referring to, sadly we can't do that and don't know in full, and when it is stated as "Thus saith the Lord" it needs to be legible as per what its speaking about or we don't what in full like we should know.

The fact that people don't understand that a true prophetic uttering can't confuse or be slack is just kinda mind boggling to be honest. Now the book of Revelation was meant to be encoded and thus only understood in the END TIMES, but we still got everything Jesus wanted to give unto us. In Paul's letters we are getting PARTIAL CONVERSATIONS !! Them harking back to conversations they had in person, or in OTHER LETTERS we never see !! So YES, something can be of God, but not inform us IN FULL.........Which allows Satan to move in with half truths.

You not understanding this is again, on you brother.

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:07 PM, Diaste said:

I don't doubt the 'rapture', by which you mean 'gathering of the elect' or, 'us to him' or, 'caught up'; as the term 'rapture' appears no where in the Greek text, and only is called such by doctrines of man;

Wrong, the Harpzo is translated to the Latin via the Latin Vulgate as Rapio, and into English as a "SNATCHING AWAY". So they all three mean the exact same thing, and Paul wrote it. You want me to use HARPAZO instead of Rapture ? What difference does it make ? NONE, that is why I use Rapture with the authority of Paul behind it, I don't even get the point that you guys try to make here, it is a non sequitur to be honest. 

 

On 11/24/2018 at 3:07 PM, Diaste said:

it's the timing proposed by the doctrine to which you hold that I doubt. Strike that, the timing proposed by the doctrine to which you hold I know is wrong. So wrong that to consider it's existence as truth means less to me than the existence of unicorns. I'm more apt the believe in Bigfoot than the timing of a 'pretrib rapture'.

It's your inability to look that limits your sight brother. Its there, but of course you already know the facts so why look. 

On 11/24/2018 at 3:07 PM, Diaste said:

In Rev 19, an event which you cite as proof in every rebuttal to the doctrine of man which you hold provides no timing for 'rapture'. It's a hope on your part engineered by the false doctrine of pretrib.

 

No proof............except the Church marries the Lamb, then returns from Heaven with Jesus to defeat the Beast who is still on earth!! But that is all the proof that is needed isn't it, but there are tons more proofs, everything Jesus taught about the Jewish Marriage/Wedding events point to a 7 year Bridal Chambers residence, if we LOOK. You guys don't get the two brides angle at all, you don't understand Israel is the Wheat not the Church, that she remains on earth with the tares until the end, you confuse all these passages to be about the church which is Jesus' bride. Think LEAH & RACHEL one was desired the other was a contingent choice. 

The Bride is seen in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. She marries the Lamb in Heaven. She is seen in White Raiment in Rev. 4:4 and see as the REDEEMED MULTITUDE in Rev. 5:9. But of course she's still on earth !! Shes seen again in Rev. 7:9-17 one final time, those are not the Saints killed during the 70th week, those Martyrs are told SPECIFICALLY they MUST WAIT until ALL THEIR BROTHERS have been killed in like manner as they were, or in other words until the Beasts 42 month reign is over. Pretty basic stuff to be honest. 

On 11/24/2018 at 3:07 PM, Diaste said:

 Two places in scripture tell us timing: 2 Thess 2; after the revealing of the beast at the A of D; Matt 24:29-30, Immediately after the tribulation of those days....; and these two agree fully with each other.

 

2 Thess 2 says no such thing as I showed above. It states the Church will depart before the Wrath of God and the AC comes forth which happen at the same time. The First Seal is the AC and the Wrath of God. 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the Church/Bride returning with Jesus to defeat the Beast AFTER the tribulation of those days. 

 

On 11/24/2018 at 3:07 PM, Diaste said:

 No other places in scripture show timing of the gathering of the elect, caught up or, us to him. Meaning this is a post A of D gathering of the elect, or pre-wrath gathering, and not any other.

 

Plenty of places show it, you just ain't looking in the right places, your mind was made up long ago. But when you get to heaven, then you will see fully. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Abdicate said:

The context of 2 Thess 2 is clear that before the day of  the Lord comes, the man of perdition is revealed, and before he's revealed, the departure happens where we are gathered with Him in the sky. It's really quite clear in the text once you get past any dogmatic biases.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (the day of the Lord)  that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness a is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know (the rebellion and the revealing) what is holding (the day of the Lord) him back, so that (the day of the Lord) he may be revealed at the proper time.

"

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, this mindset is what separates real prophecy wonks from the average Christian not called unto Prophecy. When the Prophets of God said "Thus saith the Lord" it had to be 100 percent factual and 100 percent legible so it would be congruent to be masses. You can't take a letter, which was a reply, and understand it in full without the other letter he is replying unto. Now if the writer knew his letters were going to be used as Holy writ he would have expounded on each subject and clarified things, that is just a fact. Where he says YOU KNOW WHAT I TOLD YOU WHEN I WAS WITH YOU........Would have been, here is what we discussed before and this is why I told you that !! You don't purposely leave something hanging where Satan can move in, like he has with 2 Thess. 2 and confuse people with lies and half truths. Just the fact that we have so many different beliefs on what the WITHHOLDER is proves my point, the letters of Paul were never intended to be Holy writ or he would have clarified these things unto us, they were letters between friends, brothers. You take any set of letters between people, take out some of the letters and you will not get a full perspective on what they are speaking about. 

"It is word of God" only means if you got like say 8 chapters of Daniel it would still be the word of God, but not the full word of God. Of course God taught Paul in Heaven, or in Spirit, so whatever he says is OF GOD..........But it still needs to be understood via all the contextual forms he was speaking in etc. etc. etc.

If we didn't get Daniel chapter 2 then we would be somewhat hindered in Dan. ch. 7 etc. etc. If we only got 11 chapters of the book of Revelation then we would be greatly hindered. If Paul had a video where he taught us this great teaching and he made three tapes and 2 were missing, we would not get his full teaching !! We got snippets of what he spoke of with these people, we don't have his teachings in full unto them, things are not expounded on in full.

What if we could g back to the time he was teaching them in person and Paul is saying, the Church will not go through the Wrath of God (like he says elsewhere) and then when he tells them in Thessalonians  (2 Thess. 2) that thy will DEPART and be gathered unto Jesus BEFORE the Anti-Christ comes forth OR the Day of the Lord comes upon the world.........KEY HERE is both are simultaneous events. The Beast and Day of the Lord are the SAME EVENT, that is why Paul uses them both. The Wrath of God starts with the Beast coming forth. 

The fact that people don't understand that a true prophetic uttering can't confuse or be slack is just kinda mind boggling to be honest. Now the book of Revelation was meant to be encoded and thus only understood in the END TIMES, but we still got everything Jesus wanted to give unto us. In Paul's letters we are getting PARTIAL CONVERSATIONS !! Them harking back to conversations they had in person, or in OTHER LETTERS we never see !! So YES, something can be of God, but not inform us IN FULL.........Which allows Satan to move in with half truths.

You not understanding this is again, on you brother.

 

 This sort of rationalization is troubling. Mainly because it appears God has appointed you personally to fill in the blanks and clarify, and add and subtract, for the 'average Christian'. 

I do believe you cannot ascertain intent as concerns holy writ. And you seem unable to realize that you are breeding confusion by declaring what is, and is not, the word of God.

All in all I don't believe your opinions are reliable.

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Wrong, the Harpzo is translated to the Latin via the Latin Vulgate as Rapio, and int English as a "SNATCHING AWAY". So they all three mean the exact same thing, and Paul wrote it. You want me to use HARPAZO instead of Rapture ? What difference does it make ? NONE, that is why I use Rapture with the authority of Paul behind it, I don't even get the point that you guys try to make here, it is a non sequitur to be honest. 

Oh my. The idea here is credibility. The word does not appear in the Greek, it's a popularized term. If one can and does change a word here or there by personal preference, what else is one changing?

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

None........except the Church marries the Lamb, then returns from Heaven with Jesus to defeat the Beast who is still on earth !! But that is all the proof that is needed isn't it, but there are tons more proofs, everything Jesus taught about the Jewish Marriage/Wedding events point to a 7 year Bridal Chambers residence, if we LOOK. You guys don't get the two brides angle at all, you don't understand Israel is the Wheat not the Church, that she remains on earth with the tares until the end, you confuse all these passages to be about the church which is Jesus' bride. Think LEAH & RACHEL one was desired the other was a contingent choice. 

The Bride is seen in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened. She marries the Lamb in Heaven. She is seen in White Raiment in Rev. 4:4 and see as the REDEEMED MULTITUDE in Rev. 5:9. But if course she's still on earth !! Shes seen again in Rev. 7:9-17 one final time, those are not the Saints killed during the 70th week, the are told SPECIFICALLY they MUST WAIT until ALL THEIR BROTHERS have been killed in like manner as they were, or in other words until the Beasts 42 month reign is over. Pretty basic stuff to be honest. 

I could agree IF, you had facts and stopped offering so much opinion.

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

2 Thess 2 says no such thing as I showed above. It states the Church will depart before the Wrath of God and the AC comes forth which happen at the same time. The First Seal is the AC and the Wrath of God. 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the Church/Bride returning with Jesus to defeat the Beast AFTER the tribulation of those days. 

How does the wrath of God begin at the first seal? So God's wrath begins twice? Unreliable testimony based on this:

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us ^f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their ^g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Wrath only begins at the sixth seal. Not before. Please cite a direct statement from scripture for your contention wrath begins at the 1st seal, as I have done proving wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Diaste
Giving in to a momentary spell of compulsion.

[frienduff thaylorde]

The most dangerous eschatology known to man , that was ever presented to man ,    IS PRETERISM .

The one thing about pre mid or post trib , is at least these are waiting for OUR LORD Second coming .

preterism teaches it already happened .    AND HOW DEADLY THIS IS .   FOR even JESUS said IF YOU WILL NOT WATCH

I will come on you as a thief .     Let no man , woman , child ,  tree, donkey , angel or any ever teach preterism .    And if we see any who does ,  rebuke and do so sharply .

Just had to get that said real fast .

IF we would simply read the bible for ourselves ,  it will become clearer and clearer .   The thing between pre and post tribs is the pre trib sees the wrath of the beast

coming against the saints as Gods wrath too .  WHEN IT aint .   If we read revelations ,  ANY time it mentions GODS actual wrath ,   who is it getting dumped on

The beast and those who worshipped the beast .   Gods wrath comes against the ungodly , the beasts wrath comes against the godly in Christ .