Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Gentlemen, there is no profit in responding to Bable Man ( I will not call him something that he is not. I have renamed him to fit his teaching, confusion). He knows all prophecy. God told him personally, just ask him.

Anytime that someone has to resort to "God told me" to buttress an argument, you know that their argument is weak.  If in fact God did tell someone something, it will harmonize with with the written word.  Let them explain using the word of God and not some claim which can not be examined. 

I've seen on this forum where two people both claimed that "God told them" something and it turns out that they were in conflict with each other about it.  Obviously, one or both didn't really hear from God because He doesn't contradict Himself.  When someone claims "God told me so", see that as a warning sign.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/29/2018 at 8:25 AM, Last Daze said:

Anytime that someone has to resort to "God told me" to buttress an argument, you know that their argument is weak.  If in fact God did tell someone something, it will harmonize with with the written word.  Let them explain using the word of God and not some claim which can not be examined. 

I've seen on this forum where two people both claimed that "God told them" something and it turns out that they were in conflict with each other about it.  Obviously, one or both didn't really hear from God because He doesn't contradict Himself.  When someone claims "God told me so", see that as a warning sign.

That means I guess you follow your own ideas/spirit and it also means you have ZERO clue how God works. The fact that you never hear God I can believe, and understand that. The fact that you mock Christians who hear God is also understandable, it shows you are missing out.  

If you can't understand when you "SEE" two people on a site say contrary things that one is confused by the deceiver Satan then you need to take a course in logic !! No one says Satan will stop trying to deceive, he deceived Peter and Jesus had to rebuke him. So Satan is not going to stop, and people not called unto certain things but going there anyway might just be a big part of the problem. When I see a Christian who can't see the timing of the Rapture the very first thing I say to myself is, if he can't get the simple things right.............what else is he missing.  

The juxtaposition you keep bringing up as no bases in logic at all. Satan is still lying !! Some Christians are just easy targets to start with. They don't believe in the Holy Spirit leading others, so it's little surprise when Satan can creep in unawares and lie unto them, they don't hear any voices at all, I hear both the liar's voice and God's voice, and both are whispering, can you hear them ? If not why not ? Now go check the scriptures out to see if they heard God and REBUKED Satan !! SMH

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That means I guess you follow your own ideas/spirit and it also means you have ZERO clue how God works. The fact that you never hear God I can believe, and understand that. The fact that you mock Christians who her God is also understandable, it shows you are missing out.  

If you can't understand when you "SEE" two people on a site say contrary things that one is confused by the deceiver Satan then you need to take a course in logic !! No one says Satan will stop trying to deceive, he deceived Peter and Jesus had to rebuke him. So Satan is not going to stop, and people not called unto certain things but going there anyway might just be a big part of the problem. When  see a Christian who can't see the timing of the Rapture the very first thing I say to myself is, if he can't get the simple things right.............what else is he missing.  

The juxtaposition you keep bringing up as n bases in logic at all. Satan is still lying !! Some Christians are just easy targets to start with. They don't believe in the Holy Spirit leading others, so its little surprise when Satan can creep in unawares and lie unto them, they don't hear any voices at all, I hear both the liars voice and God's voice, and both are whispering, can you hear them ? If not why not ? Now go check the scriptures out to see if they heard God and REBUKED Satan !! SMH

When I see someone struggling to comprehend what someone else wrote, I wonder, "what other writings might they be struggling to understand?"

Last Trumpet

• In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.   1 Corinthians 15:52

On the Last Day

• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Requires Endurance

• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13

That's all I have to say.  It's right there for everyone to see.  No special "God told me so" required.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/30/2018 at 7:47 AM, Last Daze said:

When I see someone struggling to comprehend what someone else wrote, I wonder, "what other writings might they be struggling to understand?"

Last Trumpet

• In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.   1 Corinthians 15:52

On the Last Day

• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Requires Endurance

• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13

That's all I have to say.  It's right there for everyone to see.  No special "God told me so" required.

And when it takes the Holy Spirit to reveal these deep secrets and they seem to trip a person up, something is wrong. It's obvious that either you don't study in depth or that God just doesn't "WHISPER" these things unto you. These are mistakes that no one should ever make. 

 

The Last Trump is Paul using the Feast Festivals to tell us that when the HARVEST ENDS, the Trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets always signifies this, thus when Jesus calls us home to end the PENTECOST/Church Age the HARVEST OF SOULS by the Church ends !! The Trumpet signifies that the Feast of Atonement is just ahead (Israel REPENTS) and then the Feast of Tabernacle signifies that Israel dwells with God (and Jesus reigns on earth 1000 years in Jerusalem). So you miss all the REAL CLUES, and cite a Revelation Trump, which has ZERO CORRELATION !!

 

On the Last Day means exactly what it says, Jesus was called unto the Jews ONLY, thus he preached prophesy about the Wheat (Israel) who remain with the TARES until the end, Gabriel told Daniel he would stand in his lot at the end. But the Church is not Israel, thus this has ZERO BEARING as per the Church. 

 

One who endures until the end is VERY CLEAR, it's about enduring to the end of one's life, the end times are not even shown until Matt. 24:15. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So you miss all the REAL CLUES, and site a Revelation Trump, which has ZERO CORRELATION !!

No, that's your false assumption.  I never cited a Revelation trump.  The last trump is the trump of God.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thessalonians 4:16

Here is the trump of God:

• Then the Lord will appear over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning; and the Lord God will blow the trumpet, and will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

Hope that helps.

[Diaste]

On 11/30/2018 at 12:39 PM, Revelation Man said:

And when it takes the Holy Spirit to reveal these deep secrets and they seem to trip a person up, something is wrong. It's obvious that either you don't study in depth or that God just doesn't "WHISPER" these things unto you. These are mistakes that no one should ever make. 

Funny, my ears may deceive me but it sure sounds like this applies to other people only, and not you. It's just not possible you could be violation of your own accusations.

On 11/30/2018 at 12:39 PM, Revelation Man said:

 

The Last Trump is Paul using the Feast Festivals to tell us that when the HARVEST ENDS, the Trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets always signifies this, thus when Jesus calls us home to end the PENTECOST/Church Age the HARVEST OF SOULS by the Church ends !! The Trumper signifies that the Feast of Atonement is just ahead (Israel REPENTS) and then the Feast of Tabernacle signifies that Israel dwells with God (and Jesus reigns on earth 1000 years in Jerusalem). So you miss all the REAL CLUES, and site a Revelation Trump, which has ZERO CORRELATION !!

More than probable the Jewish tradition has nothing to do with the 2nd coming, the gathering, wrath, or the kingdom. You say others just don't get it, but you are adding tradition to holy writ, to wit:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.-  Lev 23:23-25

‘On the first day of the seventh month hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. It is a day for you to sound the trumpets. As an aroma pleasing to the Lord, offer a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. With the bull offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah a of the finest flour mixed with olive oil; with the ram, two-tenths and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. These are in addition to the monthly and daily burnt offerings with their grain offerings and drink offerings as specified. They are food offerings presented to the Lord, a pleasing aroma.-  Num 29:1-6

There is no first and last trump for this. In fact this is it in scripture for this memorial. No first trump, no last trump specified. Enough cramming of tradition of men into the word of God. It doesn't matter if there was a Talmudic dictate to begin or end this day by some ritual or ceremony, it would have no relevance to end of the age prophecy. Listen to Paul:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.-  Colossians 2:8

On 11/30/2018 at 12:39 PM, Revelation Man said:

On the Last Day means exactly what it says, Jesus was called unto the Jews ONLY, thus he preached prophesy about the Wheat (Israel) who remain with the TARES until the end, Gabriel told Daniel he would stand in his lot at the end. But the Church is not Israel, thus this has ZERO BEARING. 

 

On 11/30/2018 at 12:39 PM, Revelation Man said:

One who endures until the end is VERY CLEAR, its about enduring to the end of ones life, the end times are not even shown until Matt. 24:15. 

It's comments like this that lead many of us to believe you just don't speak the truth. The end of the age was known to Joel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Zechariah, John the baptist, and others, prior Matt 24, centuries before Matt 24. Our Father spoke of the end at the very beginning, "...he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”- Gen 3 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:54 PM, Last Daze said:

No, that's your false assumption.  I never cited a Revelation trump.  The last trump is the trump of God.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thessalonians 4:16

Here is the trump of God:

• Then the Lord will appear over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning; and the Lord God will blow the trumpet, and will march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

Hope that helps.

And thus I told you what it means.....

Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture. 

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The the LAST TRUMP starts when the Church Age Ends in Rev. chapters 1-3. Then we get what Paul describes as the LAST TRUMP, which happens before the 70th week starts. 

Zechariah 12:10 Israel REPENTS.....Zechariah 13:1 Jesus cleanses Israel or the 1/3 who repent, 2/3 refuse to repent and perish. Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3-4 is Jesus defeating those same Nations at Armageddon. So Rev. 9:14 would indeed proceed all of those events.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 12/2/2018 at 5:44 AM, Diaste said:

Funny, my ears may deceive me but it sure sounds like this applies to other people only, and not you. It's just not possible you could be violation of your own accusations.

Quote

I judge by the Holy Spirit, thus I understand the Holy Spirit when I hear it, the Spirit bears witness of the Spirit. Your accusation was entirely different, you seem to be aghast that men hear from the Holy Spirit, and seemingly don't understand it. I know if two people or let's say even a 100 people have like 100 ideas that a bunch of people are being led astray by Satan, that is logic, the holy spirit is CONSISTENT. I also know via the Holy Spirit the right paths and the wrong paths, His charge is to lead us unto all truth. Just because someone is confused by Satan doesn't mean they are not of God, it just means they allow themselves to be hoodwinked like Peter did in the Garden of Gethsemane or lied to by Satan like he did to Paul who murdered Christians. The biggest problem with hearing (NOT HEARING) the voice of the Holy Spirit is PRIDE, how can we hear His TRUTHS if we are always right and always know it all ? I see this all the time !! I allow myself to be led, I don't try to lead the spirit to my understanding because I seek TRUTH.......I used to do it the other way !! So I know what I speak of. So because I learned to listen, hear, obey, and follow are GOOD THINGS RIGHT ? It's called yielding to the spirit brother.

 

On 12/2/2018 at 5:44 AM, Diaste said:

More than probable the Jewish tradition has nothing to do with the 2nd coming, the gathering, wrath, or the kingdom. You say others just don't get it, but you are adding tradition to holy writ, to wit:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.-  Lev 23:23-25

‘On the first day of the seventh month hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. It is a day for you to sound the trumpets. As an aroma pleasing to the Lord, offer a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect. With the bull offer a grain offering of three-tenths of an ephah a of the finest flour mixed with olive oil; with the ram, two-tenths and with each of the seven lambs, one-tenth. Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. These are in addition to the monthly and daily burnt offerings with their grain offerings and drink offerings as specified. They are food offerings presented to the Lord, a pleasing aroma.-  Num 29:1-6

There is no first and last trump for this. In fact this is it in scripture for this memorial. No first trump, no last trump specified. Enough cramming of tradition of men into the word of God. It doesn't matter if there was a Talmudic dictate to begin or end this day by some ritual or ceremony, it would have no relevance to end of the age prophecy. Listen to Paul:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.-  Colossians 2:8

There is always a First Trump that ENDS the Harvest and a Last Trump that signals that Atonement is nigh at hand. If you study Paul's teaching in depth he taught us a lot of things in juxtaposition to the Feasts, and remember, he was taken to the third heaven and taught many things. In the very chapter you cite, Leviticus 23, the Lord gave us 7 Feasts as appointed times (MOWED).  God knows the beginning from the ending of course and these seven specified appointed times gives us an outline of God's overall plans via history (if we just take a peek). Some of these "appointed times" have already been fulfilled, some are yet to be fulfilled.

It is a Jewish Tradition I agree, but there were also two brides, the chosen/prefered bride Rachel, and the bride that was substituted in Leah. So whereas the seven feasts seem to point towards Israel, they also point towards the "INSERTED CHURCH" or they point towards both Israel and the Church or both brides. God gives us a history of His people,  Israel, then the Church Age, then Israel again !!

God chose Israel as His bride,  His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel.....

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks (Harvest), was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church (Church Age).

Each year at Pentecost, Jewish synagogues read the entire Book of Ruth. The story of Ruth takes place at the wheat harvest, or Pentecost. This book is a picture of the Lord Jesus and His Gentile bride. Boaz was the kinsman-redeemer. Jesus is our Redeemer. Ruth was a Moabitess, a Gentile. The Church is the Gentile Bride. That very day, the Day of Pentecost, Boaz redeemed Ruth. The marriage is not mentioned, only the commitment, the betrothal, is recorded. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth is noted in conclusion, but not discussed.

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - First Corinthians 6:20

At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again.

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel.

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

The Day of Atonement is the next Feast. Israel must repent during the 70th week. It appears that this day will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

The next, and last, appointed time is the Feast of Tabernacles which was an eight-day event. It occurred at the time of the fall harvest, and was to be a time of joy and celebration.

“Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.” - Deuteronomy 16:13-14

The word tabernacle can be a noun or a verb. The Tabernacle in the wilderness was a noun, but it was also a verb describing where the Lord dwelled, or tabernacled, with Israel. In the Kingdom Age the Lord Jesus will dwell, or tabernacle, with mankind (Israel/Jerusalem).

In the Deuteronomy instructions the Children of Israel are told to celebrate for seven days. In the instructions given in Leviticus 23:33-43 they are told to hold a sacred assembly on the eighth day. In the Bible, seven is the number of completion. Therefore, eight is the number of new beginnings.

The Church Age was an inserted addition to Israel who sinned against God, so God saw them as dead men's bones and called on a new people, when the Church is raptured to heaven Israel will then be called on to repent. Notice there are two-harvests, the Summer Harvest and the Fall Harvest !! The Church is Harvested, then the Wheat which grows with the Tares until the end is harvested, and we have a new beginning. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 12/2/2018 at 5:44 AM, Diaste said:

It's comments like this that lead many of us to believe you just don't speak the truth. The end of the age was known to Joel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Zechariah, John the baptist, and others, prior Matt 24, centuries before Matt 24. Our Father spoke of the end at the very beginning, "...he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”- Gen 3 

Except Matthew was speaking about the Church Age years from Matthew 24:7-14, we know this because it states specifically that when the Gospel has been preached unto all the world.............You see, not getting the Rapture correct throws us off on many things. You think this means endure the end times, But Paul spoke of ENDURING THE RACE unto the end [of one's life]. and Jesus taught him hands on. This is another reason you guys have Matt. 24....as SORROWS being the End Time Match of Rev. ch. 6 when IT IS NOT !! Matthew 24:1-6 is about 70 AD and verses 7-14 is the Church Age. 

Verse 15 starts the END TIMES !!

Edited December 4, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Yes, the voice of our Lord is the trumpet that will be heard on the last day.  It is the voice of His authority, His authority over death, His authority to make immortal those who belong to Him.  Allow me to elaborate.

Concerning the day of the Lord:

• And the Lord will cause His voice of authority to be heard, and the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger, and in the flame of a consuming fire in cloudburst, downpour and hailstones.  Isaiah 30:30

This is also seen here:

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29

When does this take place?  At the seventh trumpet.

• And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:18

At the seventh trumpet, Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the trumpet of God, the voice of His authority.  The dead are judged and those who belong to Him are raised immortal.  This trumpet (His voice) clearly takes place after Rev 4:1 so Rev 4:1 is not the last trumpet.

Hope that helps.