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Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’


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On 12/4/2018 at 12:57 AM, Revelation Man said:

I judge by the Holy Spirit, thus I understand the Holy Spirit when I hear it, the Spirit bears witness of the Spirit. Your accusation was entirely different, you seem to be aghast that men hear from the Holy Spirit, and seemingly don't understand it. I know if two people or let's say even a 100 people have like 100 ideas that a bunch of people are being led astray by Satan, that is logic, the holy spirit is CONSISTENT. I also know via the Holy Spirit the right paths and the wrong paths, His charge is to lead us unto all truth. Just because someone is confused by Satan doesn't mean they are not of God, it just means they allow themselves to be hoodwinked like Peter did in the Garden of Gethsemane or lied to by Satan like he did to Paul who murdered Christians. The biggest problem with hearing (NOT HEARING) the voice of the Holy Spirit is PRIDE, how can we hear His TRUTHS if we are always right and always know it all ? I see this all the time !! I allow myself to be led, I don't try to lead the spirit to my understanding because I seek TRUTH.......I used to do it the other way !! So I know what I speak of. So because I learned to listen, hear, obey, and follow are GOOD THINGS RIGHT ? It's called yielding to the spirit brother.

 

There is always a First Trump that ENDS the Harvest and a Last Trump that signals that Atonement is nigh at hand. If you study Paul's teaching in depth he taught us a lot of things in juxtaposition to the Feasts, and remember, he was taken to the third heaven and taught many things. In the very chapter you cite, Leviticus 23, the Lord gave us 7 Feasts as appointed times (MOWED).  God knows the beginning from the ending of course and these seven specified appointed times gives us an outline of God's overall plans via history (if we just take a peek). Some of these "appointed times" have already been fulfilled, some are yet to be fulfilled.

It is a Jewish Tradition I agree, but there were also two brides, the chosen/prefered bride Rachel, and the bride that was substituted in Leah. So whereas the seven feasts seem to point towards Israel, they also point towards the "INSERTED CHURCH" or they point towards both Israel and the Church or both brides. God gives us a history of His people,  Israel, then the Church Age, then Israel again !!

God chose Israel as His bride,  His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel.....

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks (Harvest), was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church (Church Age).

Each year at Pentecost, Jewish synagogues read the entire Book of Ruth. The story of Ruth takes place at the wheat harvest, or Pentecost. This book is a picture of the Lord Jesus and His Gentile bride. Boaz was the kinsman-redeemer. Jesus is our Redeemer. Ruth was a Moabitess, a Gentile. The Church is the Gentile Bride. That very day, the Day of Pentecost, Boaz redeemed Ruth. The marriage is not mentioned, only the commitment, the betrothal, is recorded. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth is noted in conclusion, but not discussed.

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - First Corinthians 6:20

At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again.

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel.

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

The Day of Atonement is the next Feast. Israel must repent during the 70th week. It appears that this day will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

The next, and last, appointed time is the Feast of Tabernacles which was an eight-day event. It occurred at the time of the fall harvest, and was to be a time of joy and celebration.

“Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.” - Deuteronomy 16:13-14

The word tabernacle can be a noun or a verb. The Tabernacle in the wilderness was a noun, but it was also a verb describing where the Lord dwelled, or tabernacled, with Israel. In the Kingdom Age the Lord Jesus will dwell, or tabernacle, with mankind (Israel/Jerusalem).

In the Deuteronomy instructions the Children of Israel are told to celebrate for seven days. In the instructions given in Leviticus 23:33-43 they are told to hold a sacred assembly on the eighth day. In the Bible, seven is the number of completion. Therefore, eight is the number of new beginnings.

The Church Age was an inserted addition to Israel who sinned against God, so God saw them as dead men's bones and called on a new people, when the Church is raptured to heaven Israel will then be called on to repent. Notice there are two-harvests, the Summer Harvest and the Fall Harvest !! The Church is Harvested, then the Wheat which grows with the Tares until the end is harvested, and we have a new beginning. 

If you want to dwell in, and look to, the past that's your choice. You should not, I wish you would not, but it's up to you.

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On 12/5/2018 at 9:42 PM, n2thelight said:

The gathering back to Christ happens after the tribulation of satan,correct?

No sir, the Departure must come FIRST........AND ALSO........The Man of Sin must ALSO COME BEFORE, the Wrath of God Comes. So the whole point Paul is making is Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, don't worry !! You can't be in God's Wrath............LOOK HERE.............Both of these things must happen BEFORE the Wrath of God comes upon the world. The two things are 1.) The  Departure and 2.) The Anti-Christ.  The Wrath of God begins with the Man of Sin.  

On 12/5/2018 at 10:08 PM, n2thelight said:

Let's do this

 

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What's the subject?As you just stated our gathering back is the subject,correct?

Christians don't have to fear the wrath of God,it's just like the blood on the post,in other words one will either have the mark,or the seal

Why would one need to be sealed,if they not gonna be here?

 

You can try and change the meaning of apostasy all you want, however you can't change the fact that satan comes first

Firstly, where do you get SEALED FROM ? And if you are speaking of the 144,000 they don't get Raptured, and if you are speaking of the Martyrs they missed the Rapture and thus had to pay with the lives for their Faith, they repent AFTER the Rapture, thus they become Martyrs. 

The Meaning is DEPARTURE.............But it's the Departure of the Church, not the Departure from THE FAITH, it's not God's fault you guys misunderstood what is departing. IS IT ?

 

On 12/5/2018 at 10:08 PM, n2thelight said:

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan by name has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

I could go deeper but for now,question how do you all leave before satan gets here,which is the tribulation,and what scripture just told you he(satan)must come first?

Perdition means GOES TO DESTRUCTION (Hell), and we know that Judas was a son of perdition as is the Anti-Christ, God knew their choices, thus he told Judas to go and do what he was meant to do, likewise the Anti-Christ is destined for hell, because God knows all, thus He tells us these two times about these two mens destiny, He also knows your and my destiny. Their actions make them destined for hell. Yes, the Anti-Christ is a son of perdition also.  

The Anti-Christ must come first......Satan is cast down but he's not the Anti-Christ. 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Diaste said:

You missed the point.

I missed nothing, I know exactly what you were inferring, you missed the point I made, Matthew 24:1-14 IS NOT End Times, it happens during the 2000 some odd year church age period.

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you want to dwell in, and look to, the past that's your choice. You should not, I wish you would not, but it's up to you.

It's not past, you and I are in the Pentecost as we speak, when the TRUMPET BLOWS we will be Raptured and that ends the Harvest. Then Israel will Atone and Jesus will TABERNACLE (DWELL) with them for 1000 years. You do know the Gospels are 2000 years old right ? So a 2500 year old uttering is OLD, but something wrote in the New Testament isn't old !!

 

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24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I missed nothing, I know exactly what you were inferring, you missed the point I made, Matthew 24L1-14 IS NOT End Times, it happens during the 2000 some odd year church age period.

It's not past, you and I are in the Pentecost as we speak, when the TRUMPET BLOWS we will be Raptured and that ends the Harvest. Then Israel will Atone and Jesus will TABERNACLE (DWELL) with them for 1000 years. You do know the Gospels are 2000 years old right ? So a 2500 year old uttering is OLD, but something wrote in the New Testament isn't old !!

 

Again, deflection. 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Again, deflection. 

I just have the knowledge of the bible brother.....Nothing trips me up. 

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On 12/4/2018 at 9:44 AM, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 4:1 (RAPTURE) happens AT LEAST 7 years before the Second Coming. 

The Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years for starters. Try reading all the events described in the Day of the Lord Mentions throughout the whole bible like most people do and you will get it describes a 3.5 year period in which THE LORD STARTS the DOTL (he opens the Seals). Its like me as a Great Warrior (LOL) and I have taken a lot of stuff from this other great warrior..........but I was patient with my revenge. Then in a PLANNED DAY I started my revenge and it lasted 2 years, the DAY OF MY REVENGE had a starting point and thus the first day would be considered the Day of my revenge, even if it takes 2 years to defeat the other guy. You guys look at these 2000-3500 year old writings and try to superimpose your thinking on how they wrote and thought instead of studying the facts. The Day of the Lord is THE DAY God's Revenge starts, all it takes is a little study to understand it has to be a LONG PERIOD of time.

 

 

 

Hi RM,

Well, I'll just say that this is nonsense! It is not based on Scripture. 

Let’s look at what Scripture says about WHEN the Wrath of God starts. We can both agree that the Wrath of God does not begin until God’s Word says it begins.

There may be many events prior to God’s Wrath, but it only makes sense that something this important will be marked by a “decree” in Scriptures. Is there such a Scripture? Indeed there is.

“ For the great day of their ( Father, Son, Holy Spirit ) WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand.” Rev 6:17

This is very simple to understand. It’s strikingly clear. The verse states that on a specific “great day”, the wrath of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will begin.

After Jesus removes the sixth of seven seals, the sun and moon are darkened, the sky rolls up like a scroll, and a great earthquake moves the mountains and islands. It is after these earth shaking events that we read the reaction of those on the earth:

“ Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains”….Rev 6:15

Why are they hiding?

“And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the Wrath of the Lamb”…..Rev 6:17

They are asking to be hidden from the face of God, and from His Wrath. This is long before Jesus rides a white horse and returns to fight Armageddon. Jesus is visible to every person on earth before His final physical return; before all the Trumpets sound and before all the bowls are poured out.

“For the great day of THEIR WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand?...Rev 6:17

The wrath is not just of Jesus as mentioned in the verse before, but it is the great day of THEIR wrath. God’s Word makes this very important distinction that it is the Wrath of the triune God, the final WRATH of God.

This verse tells us that the Wrath of God “HAS COME”. Much has been made of this little verb. It is found in the “aorist “ tense, which in Greek is a “timeless tense” It must rely on context for its timing. Dr. David Mathewson of Denver Seminary demonstrates that the aorist tense is the ingressive which marks the beginning of an action. ( Mathewson, Intermediate Greek Grammar, pp 119-125)

This is the clear meaning in Rev 6:17. No one asks to be hidden under rocks from something that started years earlier. “Fall on us because the great day of their wrath started six years ago”. This is a nonsense statement that no one would make.

There is zero doubt that the Great Day of the Lord, the Wrath of God, begins after Jesus opens the sixth seal. This is indisputable according to Scripture.

All the signs associated with the sixth seal….ie: the great earthquake, the sun and moon becoming dark, the stars of heaven falling, heaven receding like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their place, etc, ……..We see this in Matt 24:29:

“ But immediately after the tribulation of those days (after the Great Tribulation) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.”

To say that the Wrath of God begins with the first seal, a person must be willing to  deny what God’s Word clearly states in Rev 6:17, that the great day of the triune God’s Wrath begins or “has come” after the sixth seal.

We can look at the events taking place after each seal to see if it is consistent with the Wrath of God, which is God’s punishment on the ungodly. The events after the first four seals represent God granting permission to the horsemen to perform their deeds, and not commanding those events. In both the fourth and fifth seals, the primary targets of the killing are those who have chosen to testify about Jesus and become martyrs.  It’s quite obvious that God’s wrath is not poured out on the faithful.

The Great Tribulation is a time when believers are slaughtered for being faithful and testifying about Jesus. In contrast, the ungodly and unrepentant have food provided under the Mark of the Beast and have their lives spared because they worship the Antichrist.

This is the polar opposite of God’s Wrath: it is punishment of the righteous and reward of the wicked. Anyone who holds to the Great Tribulation being part of God’s Wrath needs to examine their motivations for making such a statement, which is completely contrary to the nature of God.

At the opening of the fifth seal, we see the martyrs who died because of their testimony and because of the Word of God:

“ They cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”….Rev 6:10

This declaration by these eye-witnesses clearly states that after the opening of the fifth seal, God has still not begun to judge or punish. This right here precludes all five of the first seals from being God’s Wrath.

The prophet Joel clearly testifies that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath) follows the sixth seal events:

“The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes”….Joel 3:31

The Greek word translated “great” in the “Great Tribulation” (Matt 24:21) is MEGAS, which means “large or widespread”. It does not mean “worse or more painful”. By using this term, Jesus was telling us that the tribulation will be more widespread than ever before.

The pretribulation rapture that Christians SHOULD expect to be kept away from is in direct contrast with the teachings of the New Testament that repeatedly tell us to EXPECT to suffer for the cause of Christ.

“ That we MUST through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God”…..Acts 14:22

“ If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you”….John 15:20

“ Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution”….Acts 3:12

“ Therefore I Take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distress for Christs sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong”…..  2Cor 12:10

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”…..John 16:33

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.”……James 5:10

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake.”Luke 21:12

“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.”…….Matthew 5:11

“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?”……..Romans 8:35

 “That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.” (thereunto = to sufferings; to persecution.)”….1 Timothy 3:3

 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:”…..1 Peter 1:7

 Again……..To state that the Church will not go thru the Great Tribulation goes against what is the clear teachings of Scripture!

 I’ll end with this:

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease being honest.”

 

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9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Perdition means GOES TO DESTRUCTION (Hell), and we know that Judas was a son of perdition as is the Anti-Christ, God knew their choices, thus he told Judas to go and do what he was meant to do, likewise the Anti-Christ is destined for hell, because God knows all, thus He tells us these two times about these two mens destiny, He also knows your and my destiny. Their actions make them destined for hell. Yes, the Anti-Christ is a son of perdition also.  

The Anti-Christ must come first......Satan is cast down but hes not the Anti-Christ. 

satan is the only person by name who has already been sentenced to death,(destruction)Judas was called the son of perdition because satan came into him. Judas repented

You not understanding that satan is the anti christ,is what's throwing your whole doctrine off,satan must and will come first whom is the anti christ

anti in the greek means instead of

 

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results


 

Result of search for "anti":

473. anti an-tee' a primary particle; opposite, i.e. instead or because of (rarely in addition to):--for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.


 

So I see where we really differ,let me ask you a question,if you knew satan was the anti christ would that change your position on the rapture?

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1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

satan is the only person by name who has already been sentenced to death,(destruction)Judas was called the son of perdition because satan came into him. Judas repented

You not understanding that satan is the anti christ,is what's throwing your whole doctrine off,satan must and will come first whom is the anti christ

anti in the greek means instead of

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Now let's find out when Satan is cast into hell fire. I think he's cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years first, LET'S SEE !!

Rev.. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I find it odd that you think Satan is the Anti-Christ when the word says different. The Anti-Christ and False Prophet are TWO MEN....Satan is a Demon.  

1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

So I see where we really differ,let me ask you a question,if you knew satan was the anti christ would that change your position on the rapture?

He is not the Anti-Christ...........he's a Demon

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13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

Well, I'll just say that this is nonsense! It is not based on Scripture. 

Let’s look at what Scripture says about WHEN the Wrath of God starts. We can both agree that the Wrath of God does not begin until God’s Word says it begins.

There may be many events prior to God’s Wrath, but it only makes sense that something this important will be marked by a “decree” in Scriptures. Is there such a Scripture? Indeed there is.

“ For the great day of their ( Father, Son, Holy Spirit ) WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand.” Rev 6:17

This is very simple to understand. It’s strikingly clear. The verse states that on a specific “great day”, the wrath of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will begin.

What's very simple to understand is you just don't seem to grasp the basics. You don't understand God is perfect in Symmetry, he doesn't start things in the middle as you suppose. And NOWHERE does God say His wrath starts at Seal #6, you read what MEN have seen in a VISION by John "say" and assume they actually are declaring when God's Wrath begins, when they do NO SUCH THING, they are just shown to be of an understanding that God's Wrath has come upon them. Well, by that point in time in which they are seen they are in God's Wrath, but they have been in God's Wrath since Seal #1, nowhere do they state God's Wrath started at Seal #6, that is just YOU and OTHERS not grasping the bible properly and assuming things you ought not assume. 

Since the Day of the Lord is 3.5 years in length, of course the Day of God's Wrath has come !! It lasts from the First Seal until the 7th Vial so OF COURSE THEY ARE IN THE WRATH OF GOD...........BANG HEAD come on brother !! The verse states NO SUCH THING about a specific day, you just put forth your understanding as factual, even though it's not described as such. The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year period of God's Wrath. 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

After Jesus removes the sixth of seven seals, the sun and moon are darkened, the sky rolls up like a scroll, and a great earthquake moves the mountains and islands. It is after these earth shaking events that we read the reaction of those on the earth:

“ Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains”….Rev 6:15

Why are they hiding?

“And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the Wrath of the Lamb”…..Rev 6:17

They are asking to be hidden from the face of God, and from His Wrath. This is long before Jesus rides a white horse and returns to fight Armageddon. Jesus is visible to every person on earth before His final physical return; before all the Trumpets sound and before all the bowls are poured out.

“For the great day of THEIR WRATH HAS COME, and who is able to stand?...Rev 6:17

Again, you just misconstrue the bible here it seems. If these men knew who this dictator really was they would not follow him, but their LACK OF KNOWLEDGE of what is going on, in no wise changes anything, Jesus OPENED THE SEAL that RELEASED this tyrant, thus it's the Wrath of the Lamb, but these men on earth have no clue who he is !! Thus when these wars that he starts kill 1.5 to 2 billion people they just assume it's another mad man like Hitler, that is why 3 of the Kings who gave him their power/kingdom, have to be uprooted, they realize they have messed up and try to overthrow this tyrant. Then the 5th Seal is a Spiritual Seal, its a testimony against the tyrant by the Martyrs, no MAN can see that either.......but then when they finally see the celestial prophetic, foretold events, it hits them WE ARE IN THE WRATH OF GOD !! It doesn't mean it just started, it just means they FIGURED IT OUT !!

I bet I have wrote this here 30 times, it ought to be easy to grasp, but of course it doesn't fit peoples erroneous Rapture theory, so they ignore it, again and again. But I am after the truth, not my own theories being puffed up.  

The White Horse is a Metaphor, the Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering, this is what a White Horse represents, but he has a DIFFERENT CROWN and a Bow which actually means SIMPLE FABRIC in the Greek, I finally understood this to mean he's is NOT MAJESTIC like Jesus who is seen in Rev. 19 as Majestic, with MANY CROWNS which are Kingly Crowns, unlike the Anti-Christ's which are like a prize won. 

Jesus returns at the 7th Vial, no one is saying he returns here, he's already Raptured the Church before the 70th week started. Not understanding the Rapture is a REAL PROBLEM for you guys. Jesus doesn't Return BEFORE the Trumpets are blown, he returns for the Church by meeting us in the air before the 70th week, see Rev. 14:14, then he returns to fight the Armageddon Battle via Rev. 14:18-20, but that really happens in Rev. chapter 16, Rev. 14 is a Parenthetical Citation. 

Once again, those people John sees in the vision saying they are IN GOD'S WRATH has nothing to do with when it started. You could see me running a Marathon and I could say I am IN A MARATHON, does that mean I just stated ? No of course not !! That is how you are looking at this however. You are observing in 2D instead of 3D, I might be looking at 7D (IF THERE IS SUCH A DIMENSION).

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The wrath is not just of Jesus as mentioned in the verse before, but it is the great day of THEIR wrath. God’s Word makes this very important distinction that it is the Wrath of the triune God, the final WRATH of God.

 

Jesus is God and God is Jesus. The Wrath of the Lamb is the Wrath of God. Jesus is God. All of the Seal, Trumpets and Vials COME FORTH by Jesus opening the 7 Seals !! That's is why it's called the Lambs Wrath, it's describing who is opening the Seals, THE LAMB. The 7th Seal has ALL SEVEN TRUMPETS in it, and the 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets are the THREE WOES..............The 7th Woe is ALL SEVEN VIALS !! All the Wrath comes forth from the 7 Seals !! Jesus opens the Seals, it's the Lambs Wrath, Jesus is God !! And on and on and on.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 This verse tells us that the Wrath of God “HAS COME”. Much has been made of this little verb. It is found in the “aorist “ tense, which in Greek is a “timeless tense” It must rely on context for its timing. Dr. David Mathewson of Denver Seminary demonstrates that the aorist tense is the ingressive which marks the beginning of an action. ( Mathewson, Intermediate Greek Grammar, pp 119-125)

 

That's cool, but I understand the context, the First Seal starts God's Wrath, He's perfect in His Symmetry. 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 This is the clear meaning in Rev 6:17. No one asks to be hidden under rocks from something that started years earlier. “Fall on us because the great day of their wrath started six years ago”. This is a nonsense statement that no one would make.

 

Once again, you repeat the same mistake time after time. The Wrath starts in the Middle of the week, that is why the Beast rules 42 Months. God built and designed everything around this 3.5 year period so we can understand these things easier !! 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 There is zero doubt that the Great Day of the Lord, the Wrath of God, begins after Jesus opens the sixth seal. This is indisputable according to Scripture.

 

Again, you are great at repeating the same thing, but the facts are still the facts brother. Saying something 10 times doesn't change anything. I know you are just trying to emphasize a point, but I understood that pont long ago, but I have to stick to just the facts...Signed Joe Friday. 

You get so caught up in these supposed truths you miss the obvious, its called Men's Traditions. You are CONVINCED, you are 100 percent correct on this, so much so you miss the obvious brother.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 All the signs associated with the sixth seal….ie: the great earthquake, the sun and moon becoming dark, the stars of heaven falling, heaven receding like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their place, etc, ……..We see this in Matt 24:29: 

 “ But immediately after the tribulation of those days (after the Great Tribulation) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.”

 

Matthew 24:9...............Matthew 24:1-14 has ZERO to do with the end times. Matthew 24:15-31 is the END TIMES and the Second Coming, but you try to mesh them together and that is a fatal flaw as per understanding the timing of Matthew 24. But in reality, once again not understanding the Rapture throws you off. The Gospel must be preached unto all the world and THEN THE END (70th Week) will come, meaning th Church is thus Raptured at that point in time.  

The Sun and Moon as per the Darkness gets worse as we go, did you know that ? 

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER TROUBLES OF THOSE DAYS............Well, yea, but with the Church/Bride in tow.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 To say that the Wrath of God begins with the first seal, a person must be willing to  deny what God’s Word clearly states in Rev 6:17, that the great day of the triune God’s Wrath begins or “has come” after the sixth seal.

 

Or a person just has to think instead of following what men tells him. This isn't even a hard riddle to be honest.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

We can look at the events taking place after each seal to see if it is consistent with the Wrath of God, which is God’s punishment on the ungodly. The events after the first four seals represent God granting permission to the horsemen to perform their deeds, and not commanding those events. In both the fourth and fifth seals, the primary targets of the killing are those who have chosen to testify about Jesus and become martyrs.  It’s quite obvious that God’s wrath is not poured out on the faithful.

The Great Tribulation is a time when believers are slaughtered for being faithful and testifying about Jesus. In contrast, the ungodly and unrepentant have food provided under the Mark of the Beast and have their lives spared because they worship the Antichrist.

Jesus ALLOWS a Tyrant to COME FORTH and to kill 1.5 to 2 billion people, and there is also Famine. Not understanding God doesn't start things in the middle is very troubling for you. Jesus is OPENING THE SEALS........But it's not God's Wrath !!  The Great Tribulation is Jacob's Troubles, the Church will have been Raptured before the 70th week. This again throws you off big time. Those Martyrs are the people who came to Christ Jesus after the Rapture. Rev. 12:17 tells us they are the REMNANT of the SEED who keep the commandments of Jesus !! How can you not get that ? Remnant = SMALL PART THAT'S LEFT !! Of the Seed means of Jesus Christ THE SEED that takes away the sin of the world. The Remnant Christians are who will be the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal, the Jews who flee to Petra will be PROTECTED. 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 This is the polar opposite of God’s Wrath: it is punishment of the righteous and reward of the wicked. Anyone who holds to the Great Tribulation being part of God’s Wrath needs to examine their motivations for making such a statement, which is completely contrary to the nature of God.

 

Wrong sir, the Rapture confuses everything for you. This is the Wrath of God, no men had to go through this, only the people who rejected Christ go through this, the EVIL men who love the Beast, the Jews who refuse to repent, the Jews who REPENT are protected in Petra, and the NEW CONVERTS who MISSED THE MARRIAGE CALL !! They must now lay down their lives as Martyrs for Christ Jesus, as did many of the Early Christians, it is not God's Wrath that got them in this position, they refused to be filled with the OIL REMEMBER ? They are the 5 virgins with NO OIL !! The Anti-Christ being RELEASED is God's Wrath on mankind, indeed. If those Christians converts are smart enough, I imagine they will be living in Petra !! I would be if I missed the Rapture.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This is the polar opposite of God’s Wrath: it is punishment of the righteous and reward of the wicked. Anyone who holds to the Great Tribulation being part of God’s Wrath needs to examine their motivations for making such a statement, which is completely contrary to the nature of God.

 At the opening of the fifth seal, we see the martyrs who died because of their testimony and because of the Word of God:

“ They cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”….Rev 6:10

This declaration by these eye-witnesses clearly states that after the opening of the fifth seal, God has still not begun to judge or punish. This right here precludes all five of the first seals from being God’s Wrath.

They were Killed by the Anti-Christ, of course they desire "REVENGE" for their deaths, but God's Wrath has ZERO to do with revenging them does it ? It is God's vengeance. God tells them in no uncertain terms they must wait patiently. But we need the NEXT VERSE to see that don't we ? 

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God will avenge all the Prophets who were killed in His own due time, over a 3.5 year period ending with the 7th Vial. These people were killed because they failed to make the Rapture, thus they must endure. The Marriage doors were shut unto them.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The prophet Joel clearly testifies that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath) follows the sixth seal events:

“The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes”….Joel 3:31

This Hebrew word used for BEFORE means IN THE PRESENCE OF !!  The FACE OF......No use going down that road again.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

The Greek word translated “great” in the “Great Tribulation” (Matt 24:21) is MEGAS, which means “large or widespread”. It does not mean “worse or more painful”. By using this term, Jesus was telling us that the tribulation will be more widespread than ever before.

 

Greatest Troubles Ever !! Meaning more people killed than ever before it seems. These things aren't that hard, you just start with a default rapture theory. 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 The pretribulation rapture that Christians SHOULD expect to be kept away from is in direct contrast with the teachings of the New Testament that repeatedly tell us to EXPECT to suffer for the cause of Christ.

 

Verses taken out of CONTEXT.............WATCH:

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 “ That we MUST through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God”…..Acts 14:22

 

Jesus stated we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION ALWAYS !! So no kidding. As a matter of fact the GREAT TRIBULATION spoken of in Rev. 7:9-17 is about the Raptured Church coming out of the 2000 year TRIBULATION Church Age....See how I reverse these things ? WITH TRUTHS, VIA CONTEXT. 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 “ If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you”….John 15:20

 

The Church has had continual persecution, Christians in the Middle East in places like Egypt are being killed to his very day. THINK brother !! Stop allowing Men's Traditions to lead you all the time. Jesus warned us about Men's Traditions.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 Again……..To state that the Church will not go thru the Great Tribulation goes against what is the clear teachings of Scripture!

 

Again, there is a 2000 some odd year Church Age we go through and it is THE GREAT TRIBULATION as per Rev. chapter 7, whence the Church came out of as in 2000>7. And there is he 7 Year of GREATEST EVER TROUBLES which the Church will not go through because it is God's Wrath.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease being honest.”

 

Looking in the mirror ? These kind of quotes I see a silly tbh brother. I trust you believe honestly what you are saying. I have studied it all in depth however and understand when the Rapture is brother, ou quoting this changes nothing.....

God Bless.  

Edited by Revelation Man
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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Now let's find out when Satan is cast into hell fire. I think he's cast into the bottomless pit for 1000 years first, LET'S SEE !!

Rev.. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I find it odd that you think Satan is the Anti-Christ when the word says different. The Anti-Christ and False Prophet are TWO MEN....Satan is a Demon.  

It's just the different roles that he(satan)plays example

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

In the above would you say they are 3 different people,satan the dragon and the serpent?

 

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