Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Yes, the voice of our Lord is the trumpet that will be heard on the last day.  It is the voice of His authority, His authority over death, His authority to make immortal those who belong to Him.  Allow me to elaborate.

Rev. 4:1 (RAPTURE) happens AT LEAST 7 years before the Second Coming. 

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Concerning the day of the Lord:

• And the Lord will cause His voice of authority to be heard, and the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger, and in the flame of a consuming fire in cloudburst, downpour and hailstones.  Isaiah 30:30

The Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years for starters. Try reading all the events described in the Day of the Lord Mentions throughout the whole bible like most people do and you will get it describes a 3.5 year period in which THE LORD STARTS the DOTL (he opens the Seals). Its like me as a Great Warrior (LOL) and I have taken a lot of stuff from this other great warrior..........but I was patient with my revenge. Then in a PLANNED DAY I started my revenge and it lasted 2 years, the DAY OF MY REVENGE had a starting point and thus the first day would be considered the Day of my revenge, even if it takes 2 years to defeat the other guy. You guys look at these 2000-3500 year old writings and try to superimpose your thinking on how they wrote and thought instead of studying the facts. The Day of the Lord is THE DAY God's Revenge starts, all it takes is a little study to understand it has to be a LONG PERIOD of time.

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

This is also seen here:

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.  John 5:28-29

When does this take place?  At the seventh trumpet.

• And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:18

At the seventh trumpet, Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the trumpet of God, the voice of His authority.  The dead are judged and those who belong to Him are raised immortal.  This trumpet (His voice) clearly takes place after Rev 4:1 so Rev 4:1 is not the last trumpet.

You put scriptures together that don't really go together, but Oh well. I mean you can place it here, but the Rapture happens before Rev. ch. 11, that is what you guys just can't seem to comprehend.

The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe. Rev. 11 says no such thing as Christians are Raptured nor does Rev. 16. It's speaking about the Jews of old being raised.

The "LAST TRUMP" as I stated in an earlier post has ZERO to do with the Tribulation Judgment Trumps, it's about the CALL to end the Harvest !! You don't seem to get that brother. It has nothing to do with the Judgment Trumpets in the book of Revelation. 

This just in, Rev. 11 is not a real time event per se, it's a Parenthetical Citation. Rev. 11 is ALL ABOUT the 1260 day Ministry of the two-witnesses and it shows the 7th Trumpet (3rd Woe) which is the 7 Vials, and what happens because of those 7 Judgment Vials, and of course Jesus TAKES OVER, see Rev. 16. In other words Rev. 11 ending is Rev. 16. It has nothing to do with Rv. 4:1.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Last Daze]

54 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 4:1 (RAPTURE) happens AT LEAST 7 years before the Second Coming. 

The Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years for starters. Try reading all the events described in the Day of the Lord Mentions throughout the whole bible like most people do and you will get it describes a 3.5 year period in which THE LORD STARTS (he opens the Seals). Its like me as a Great Warrior (LOL) and I have taken a lot of stuff from this other great warrior..........but I was patient with my revenge. Then in a PLANNED DAY I started my revenge and it lasted 2 years, the DAY OF MY REVENGE had a starting point and thus the first day would be considered he Day of my revenge, even if it takes 2 years to defeat the other guy. You guys look at these 2000-3500 year old writings and try to superimpose your thinking on how they wrote and thought instead of studying the facts. The Day of the Lord is THE DAY God's Revenge starts, all it takes is a little study to understand it has to be a LONG PERIOD of time.

You put scriptures together that don't really go together, but Oh well. I mean you can place it here, but the Rapture happens before Rev. ch. 11, that is what you guys just can't seem to comprehend.

The 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe. Rev. 11 says no such thing nor does Rev. 16. 

The "LAST TRUMP" as I stated in an earlier post has ZERO to do with the Tribulation Judgment Trumps, it's about the CALL to end the Harvest !! You don't seem to get that brother. It has nothing to do with the Judgment Trumpets in the book of Revelation. 

This just in, Rev. 11 is not a real time event per se, it's a Parenthetical Citation. Rev. 11 is ALL ABOUT the 1260 day Ministry of the two-witnesses and it shows the 7th Trumpet (3rd Woe) which is the 7 Vials, and what happens because of those 7 Judgments, and of course Jesus TAKES OVER, see Rev. 16. In other words Rev. 11 ending is Rev. 16. It has nothing to do with Rv. 4:1.

 

It's going to happen as God wills.  Ours is to be ready.

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years for starters. Try reading all the events described in the Day of the Lord Mentions throughout the whole bible like most people do and you will get it describes a 3.5 year period in which THE LORD STARTS the DOTL (he opens the Seals).

 

Hi RM,

Perhaps you would do us a favor and produce the scriptures that say that the Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years.

I have not found that timeline in any of these scriptures:

Joel 2:31.....3:14

Amos 5:18....5:20

Obadiah 1:15

Zephaniah 1:7....1:8....1:14.....1:18......2:2.....2:3

Zechariah 14:1

Malachi 4:5

Acts 2:20

1 Thes 5:2

2 Thes 2:1-4

Colossians 5:5

Phil 1:9-10......2:16

2 Peter 3:10

However, I did find some scriptures in Isaiah that DO give us a timeline for the Day of the Lord:

Isa 13:6-13: 

⁶ Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

⁷ Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

⁸ And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

⁹ Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

¹⁰ For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

¹¹ And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

¹² I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

 ¹³Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 63:4.....  For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Isa 61:2......² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 34:8......⁸ For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah tells us 3 times that the Day of the Lord is ONE YEAR LONG.

Isaiah 13:10..... Tells us that the stars and constellations, the sun and the moon will not have their light shine. This is the same as
Joel 2:31....."¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

At the opening of the 6th seal, we find this from Isa and Rev:

Isa 13:13..... The same as Rev 6:12:....¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;........................ and in Rev 6:14-16,

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

All the different versions of the Bible that I use/reference say the same thing. The day of the Lord STARTS after the opening of the 6th seal, there is a great earthquake, the stars and sun and moon go dark,  the peoples of the earth (the unrepentant) HIDE in the rocks and caves because they know that the Day of the Lord comes....and that day is the Day of the Lord and is ONE YEAR long. 

Maybe your bible is a different version than all the rest. 

 

[Revelation Man]

19 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

Perhaps you would do us a favor and produce the scriptures that say that the Day of the Lord lasts 3.5 years.

I have not found that timeline in any of these scriptures:

Joel 2:31.....3:14

 Amos 5:18....5:20

Obadiah 1:15

Zephaniah 1:7....1:8....1:14.....1:18......2:2.....2:3

Zechariah 14:1

Malachi 4:5

Acts 2:20

1 Thes 5:2

2 Thes 2:1-4

Colossians 5:5

Phil 1:9-10......2:16

2 Peter 3:10

However, I did find some scriptures in Isaiah that DO give us a timeline for the Day of the Lord:

Isa 13:6-13: 

⁶ Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

⁷ Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

⁸ And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

⁹ Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

¹⁰ For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

¹¹ And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

¹² I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

 ¹³Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 63:4.....  For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Isa 61:2......² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 34:8......⁸ For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah tells us 3 times that the Day of the Lord is ONE YEAR LONG.

Isaiah 13:10..... Tells us that the stars and constellations, the sun and the moon will not have their light shine. This is the same as
Joel 2:31....."¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

At the opening of the 6th seal, we find this from Isa and Rev:

Isa 13:13..... The same as Rev 6:12:....¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;........................ and in Rev 6:14-16,

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

All the different versions of the Bible that I use/reference say the same thing. The day of the Lord STARTS after the opening of the 6th seal, there is a great earthquake, the stars and sun and moon go dark,  the peoples of the earth (the unrepentant) HIDE in the rocks and caves because they know that the Day of the Lord comes....and that day is the Day of the Lord and is ONE YEAR long. 

Maybe your bible is a different version than all the rest. 

 

Descriptions of the Day of the Lord in  Joel 2:1-15.............day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness, all faces shall gather blackness. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining..............

Joel 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God ? 18 Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. 21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.

The Anti-Christ (Northern Army) is not destroyed until the 7th Vial. The Darkness and glominess starts at the First Seal, doom and gloom is 1.5 billion people getting killed (First four seals) Darkness is the Sun and moon going dark, Seal number 6, the Trumpets are the FIRES before and Behind. The Day of the Lord covers MANY EVENTS, it's THE DAY God's judgments start !! It's not A DAY. Just like Babylon is not destroyed in ONE HOUR, but in 3.5 years.  Put it together man !!  

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Is ONE HOUR really ONE HOUR ? No, of course not it is also 3.5 Years !! How long does the Beast Rule ? 42 Months or 3.5 years, thus Babylon (The World) is Judged in ONE HOUR or a 3.5 year period. Next we shall see another Metaphor.

Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Now does her PLAGUES come in ONE DAY or over a LONG PERIOD of time (3.5 years) ? Well Death, Mourning and Famine are SEAL PLAGUES !! She is UTTERLY BURNED are the Trumpet Plagues = The Grasses all burn, a 1/3 of the Trees burn !! Why do you not get that the Day of the Lord is NOT A DAY ? How can you miss this brother ? Add it up, why am I doing the grunt work for you ? Not that I mind, mind you, but I have done this before, people just ignore the facts and go their merry way it seems.

I don't study the bible to get my assumptions approved, I study to find out truths, when we look at all the things that must happen on the Day of the Lord it's pretty easy to understand this is a long period of time per say as so compared unto ONE DAY, which is just not a possibility at all. I could go on and on, but if you put in your own grunt work you will learn it for yourself. 

God's Vengeance comes from the 7 Seals Jesus opens. The 7th Seal are ALL 7 TRUMPETS and the 7th Trumpet are ALL SEVEN Vials combined. The Wrath of God starts with the first seal. God is perfect in symmetry, He never starts anything in the middle PERIOD !! Jesus is opening the Seals thus it's called the Wrath of the Lamb. Jesus opens all 7 Seals, God's Wrath comes from the 7 Seals.

You guys are always challenging me to show you things, then I do, and you ask the same thing a month later. We have to put the bibles puzzle together here a little, there a little, here a jot there a jot. Line upon line, precept upon precept. God doesn't give His plans away to the enemy, we have to figure them out via study and prayer. God's PLAGUES last 3.5 years, that is why God protects Israel for 1260 days (3.5 years) that is why God tells Israel to come out of Babylon lest you partake in her sins and thus receive of her Plagues. So why do you think everything in the END TIMES is centered around a 3.5 year period? EVERYTHING !! If you are waiting on a thunderbolt from heaven with a horn announcing it you will never see it brother, but it's in the word, it's common sense. God gives us intuitiveness to figure these things out. I can study it in depth and explain it, but to learn it you have to research it. 

God Bless brother. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Revelation Man

[n2thelight]

On 11/2/2018 at 12:07 PM, JoeCanada said:

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;....2 Thes 2:3

 

Second Thessalonians chapter two has been the nemesis for pretribulationism. Or what I refer to as the 800-pound gorilla in the Bible of the pretribulationist.

This biblical passage has convinced more ex-pretribulationists that their pretrib theology is wrong than any other Bible passage. The reason for this is straightforward: The fundamental premise of pretribulationism is that there cannot be any prophesied events that will take place before the rapture, and consequently they believe in the novel idea of what has come to be called the “any moment” rapture (a.k.a. imminence).

Paul, however, gives an unambiguous statement in v. 3 that has lead many to reject imminence and thereby understand that there will be in fact at least a couple of key monumental events that will happen before the rapture.

Several pretrib teachers have attempted to get around the plain meaning of this Biblical text, but there has been one in particular that is indeed the most strained.

A few years back at a Bible prophecy  Conference I gave a series of lectures on Thessalonians. One of them was focused particularly on the pretrib argument that the Greek word behind “rebellion” (apostasia, ἀποστασία) can carry the meaning of a “physical and spatial departure,” thereby suggesting that Paul has the rapture in mind when he uses this word in this verse.

Some pretribulationists, such as Thomas Ice, argue that the word “rebellion” (apostasia, ἀποστασία) means “physical departure”and not a “religious departure,” thus denoting the rapture.

This view was first introduced in 1895 by J. S. Mabie and  popularized by E. Schuyler English in 1949

In their first appeal they try to support this argument by noting earlier versions

Pretrib proponents have pointed out that early English Bibles such as Tyndale, Coverdale, and Geneva have rendered rebellion in v. 3 as “departing.”

The implication of the English word “depart” is suppose to suggest a “physical departing” and thus the concept of the rapture was in the mind of these English translators.

But this is not correct for a couple of reasons:

Appealing to sixteenth-century English versions to understand the meaning of a Greek word is naïve at best and only pushes the question back a step further: What did the sixteenth-century English word “departing” mean? Since the English word can be spatial or non-spatial in meaning.

These same early English versions use “departing” at Hebrews 3:12. For example the KJV reads, “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

Here “departing” is clearly non-spatial.

Further, there is no evidence that these translators on this verse understood apostasia as a “spatial departure.”

A second appeal is to lexical evidence. But which side is the lexical evidence on?

Here is where the rubber meets the road.

Is there any lexical evidence that would prove that apostasia can carry the meaning of “physical departing,” let alone in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

Word studies always begin with proximity and works its way outward:

Author -> NT -> Septuagint -> Koine (Pseudepigrapha Josephus, Philo) -> Classical Greek -> Patristic

New Testament:

The term is used only one other time in the New Testament, which means a religious departure:

and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [religious apostasy] Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. –Acts 21:21

Septuagint:

Four Times: Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 1 Maccabees 2:15; Jeremiah 2:19.

Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense—never used as a spatial or physical sense.

Koine Greek Literature:

In Moulton and Milligan’s, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-Literary Sources, it is demonstrated that this term is only used in the political or religious defection sense—again, never used in a spatial departure sense (pp. 68–9).

Further, even pretribulationist scholar Paul Feinberg admits, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.”

He is correct.

Classical Greek:

The classical Greek Liddell and Scott lexicon lists the primary meaning of apostasia as “defection, revolt”; and “departure, disappearance” as a secondary meaning.

The only example of this secondary meaning of spatial departure is found five centuries later after the New Testament. It is sloppy and simply fallacious to read back, not only an obscure meaning but one that is five centuries after the New Testament!

Patristic Greek:

The standard Greek lexicon for Patristic Greek Lampe has the primary meaning of apostasia as “revolt, defection” and gives only one example of a spatial departure.

This one instance is found in a NT apocryphal work on the tradition of the Assumption of Mary. Again, outside of the Koine period dated to the later 5th century A.D.

So what do we make of all this lexical evidence?

Here are the documented lexical facts:

There were five Greek sources examined. The most weighty and important sources are in the Koine period, the New Testament and the Septuagint–not a single instance does apostasia carry the meaning of “physical departure.” Instead, every instance has the meaning of religious or political departure.

The last two sources—Classical and Patristic Greek—are the least weighty and important because they are the furthest removed from the New Testament.

There were only two instances from these  sources that have a physical departure meaning—and both of these examples are dated late well into the 5th-6th century.

This is why one will not find the “physical” (i.e. spatial) meaning in standard New Testament lexicons.

BDAG defines this word as “defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith”

BDAG‘s predecessor Thayer

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel)

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Brown)

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Balz)

A third appeal to the cognate verb

So how does the pretribber respond to these lexical facts? This is where the desperate leap takes place.

We have done a responsible thorough examination of the noun apostasia demonstrating that the term does not carry a “physical-spatial” meaning in the Koine period.

The pretribber will make the leap by pointing to the cognate verb form of apostasia, which is aphistemi, which means “to withdraw, remove, depart, leave.” It is used 14 times in the NT and is used both in a spatial and non-spatial sense. This is where the leap happens by assuming that the verb meaning carries over to the noun meaning.

E. S. English succinctly states the pretrib reasoning: “since a noun takes its meaning from the verb, the noun, too, may have such a broad connotation.”

Davey goes further saying, “Since the root verb has this meaning of ‘departure’ from a person or place in a geographical sense, would not its derivatives have the same foundational word meaning.”

Enter the cognate and root fallacy.

Cognates and roots is not the way any responsible exegete determines word meanings (Imagine reading the newspaper this way. Or love letters!)

Instead, word meanings are determined by semantic range and its usage in context.

Even Feinberg rejects this naïve method when he comments on this specific word: “the meaning of derivative nouns must be established through their usage.” (emphasis his)

Perfect case in point: aphistemi

Apostasion is a cognate noun to this verb, which only means “divorce or some other legal act of separation.”

Apostater another cognate noun which means “one who has power to dissolve an assembly” or “to decide a question.”

Since these derivative nouns do not contain the meaning of a spatial or physical departure (as the pretribber will not argue), there is absolutely no basis to assume that our target noun apostasia does as well. In other words, the pretrib cannot have their lexical cake and eat it too. It is first rank special pleading.

The fourth appeal: context

Since the semantic range does not include “physical or spatial departure” it is moot to even evaluate context—unless someone wants to argue that this is the only instance within 500 years that the term means a “physical departure”!

Nevertheless, let’s argue context.

To interpret the word “rebellion” in v. 3 as the “rapture” does not comport with the context, and as we will see it makes Paul unintelligible, even humorous.

First, Paul is making a contrast of what precedes and what follows. The “gathering” (rapture) and parousia/day of the Lord is what follows (“For that day will not come unless”) the rebellion and revelation of the man of lawlessness. The pretrib view would have Paul in essence saying, “The rapture cannot happen until the rapture happens” But Paul is clearly marking certain events as signs or conditions that must take place before Christ’s return.

Second, Paul does not simply mention “rebellion” (apostasy) and leave it at that. But the verse begins with Paul’s exhortation, “Let no one deceive you in any way.” This is followed by “For,” which in this case is called an “explanatory hoti (ὅτι).” That is to say, Paul is connecting the exhortation not to be deceived with the fact of rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed.

In addition, some pretrib teachers have attempted to argue that since there is an article “the” before “rebellion” it indicates that the Thessalonians were familiar with some previous teaching by Paul. This is baseless, since they have to assume that it refers to the rapture. It is classic begging the question.

But what does the context show us?

Since this word in the Koine period always meant a “religious or political departure” should we then not be surprised that Paul makes references in this very context to “the truth” and “the Christian faith”?

Indeed, he does:

v. 2 “not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed”
v. 3 “Let no one deceive you in any way”
v. 10 “they refused to love the truth”
v. 11 “Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false”
v. 13 “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth”
v. 15 “stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”

In addition, the rebellion and the revealing of the man of lawlessness are not two disconnected or unrelated events, but should be seen as a two-fold unifying event: “first” refers to both of the events that must happen before the day of the Lord.

And what is the connection between Antichrist and the apostasy/rebellion?

“The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.” 2 Thessalonians 2:9–11.

I recognize that there are other viewpoints of who actually apostatizes:

(1) A conspicuous increase in godlessness (or rebellion) within the world? (but the definite article before “rebellion” would suggest a more specific discernible event)
(2) A significant apostasy within the professing church?
(3) True believers lose their salvation? (but see 2 Thess 2:13).
(4) Jewish in scope? (but the context here includes Gentiles)

My own position is #2 because I believe the immediate context in chapter 2 of the Antichrist’s activity informs us of the identity of the rebellion. Nevertheless, this is not particularly essential to my point in this article.

Here is the big picture: The pretribulational “Physical Departure” argument fails on all four levels:

It fails on appealing to early English versions
It fails on appealing to five bodies of Greek literature
It fails on appealing to its verbal cognate form
It fails on appealing to context.

Even the most noted pretibulational scholar John F. Walvoord did not take this “physical departure” interpretation:

In the first edition of his popular book The Rapture Question (1957) he defended the “Physical Departure” argument. But after considering some of these arguments put forth by Robert H. Gundry, Walvoord rejected this common pretrib argument which he notes in his second edition of The Rapture Question (1979).

Also, noted pretrib scholar Paul Feinberg writes, “there is no reason to understand Paul’s use of apostasia as a reference to the rapture” (When the Trumpet Sounds, 311).

https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/11/does-apostasia-in-2-thessalonians-23-refer-to-a-physical-departure-i-e-the-rapture/

A falling away from truth,plain and simple,and if you don't know the truth,ie His Word He will allow you to believe the lie

 

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system.

"Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or whore houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.

[n2thelight]

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

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Result of search for "apostasia": 646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.

[Revelation Man]

On 12/5/2018 at 5:10 AM, n2thelight said:

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

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Result of search for "apostasia": 646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.

Words change their meaning over time, everyone should know that. Gay meant happy 50 years ago now it means a homosexual perverted lifestyle. 

The First Seven English translations translated it DEPARTED as did the Latin Vulgate via the word dicessio. What is the subject ? "A Gathering unto the Lord" So what is DEPARTING ? This isn't really that hard to see, it pretty obvious that the Church is being spoken of, not THE FAITH, else why would Paul tell them not to fear ? Christians can't go through the Wrath of God he tells them, first comes the Departure and then the Anti-Christ will come forth, both of these things have to happen before the Wrath of God can come !! 

It sure isn't speaking about FAITH anywhere is it ? THE GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Christ is the subject. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Revelation Man

[n2thelight]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It sure isn't speaking about FAITH anywhere is it ? THE GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Christ is the subject. 

The gathering back to Christ happens after the tribulation of satan,correct?

[n2thelight]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Words change their meaning over time, everyone should know that. Gay meant happy 50 years ago now it means a homosexual perverted lifestyle. 

The First Seven English translations translated it DEPARTED as did the Latin Vulgate via the word dicessio. What is the subject ? "A Gathering unto the Lord" So what is DEPARTING ? This isn't really that hard to see, it pretty obvious that the Church is being spoken of, not THE FAITH, else why would Paul tell them not to fear ? Christians can't go through the Wrath of God he tells them, first come the Departure and then the Anti-Christ will come forth, bot if these things of to happen before the Wrath of God can come !! 

It sure isn't speaking about FAITH anywhere is it ? THE GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Christ is the subject. 

Let's do this

 

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What's the subject?As you just stated our gathering back is the subject,correct?

Christians don't have to fear the wrath of God,it's just like the blood on the post,in other words one will either have the mark,or the seal

Why would one need to be sealed,if they not gonna be here?

 

You can try and change the meaning of apostasy all you want, however you can't change the fact that satan comes first

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan by name has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

I could go deeper but for now,question how do you all leave before satan gets here,which is the tribulation,and what scripture just told you he(satan)must come first?

[Diaste]

On 12/4/2018 at 1:03 AM, Revelation Man said:

Except Matthew was speaking about the Church Age years from Matthew 24:7-14, we know this because it states specifically that when the Gospel has been preached unto all the world.............You see, not getting the Rapture correct throws us off on many things. You think this means endure the end times, But Paul spoke of ENDURING THE RACE unto the end [of one's life]. and Jesus taught him hands on. This is another reason you guys have Matt. 24....as SORROWS being the End Time Match of Rev. ch. 6 when IT IS NOT !! Matthew 24:1-6 is about 70 AD and verses 7-14 is the Church Age. 

Verse 15 starts the END TIMES !!

You missed the point.