ROMANS 14 and homosexuality

[discipler777]

1 hour ago, artsylady said:

Jesus never said a thing against being gay.

That's because you probably do not know or see that Jesus Christ of the New Testament was also the God of the Old Testament. ...

 

JOHN.8:54-59 (NKJV) = 54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

EXODUS.3:14 = 14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

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LEVITICUS.18:22 = 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

JOHN.1:1-4 & 14 = The Eternal Word

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

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God/Jesus gave His Law to Moses plus all the needed instructions about the Law in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, God came down to earth and took human form as Jesus Christ, in order to save fallen Man from the curse of hell or spiritual death. That was the main focus of the NT gospel, ie salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and not to re-teach the Law or how to keep the Law.

So, Jesus Christ (= God) has already said many things against being gay in the Old Testament, eg He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of gays(cf AIDS today).

Edited November 12, 2018 by discipler777

[Guest shiloh357]

10 hours ago, artsylady said:

Jesus never said a thing against being gay.  

Jesus also never said anything against rape, child abuse, child molestation, spousal abuse...   So are those things okay since Jesus didn't speak against them?

[Guest shiloh357]

11 hours ago, artsylady said:

Also in Leviticus, eating shrimp, lobster, crab is an 'abomination'.   

Yes, but the word for abomination in Hebrew in regard to eating crab and lobster is "shekhetz"  and refers to what is ritually impure.

The word for abomination in Hebrew in regard to homosexuality  is "to-ayvah" and it refers to what God hates and abhors.   

So, your line of thinking there doesn't work.   God hates homosexuality, period.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 hours ago, artsylady said:

Read the book by Justin Lee's called Torn.   This was the beginning of when I decided to change my mind on this important issue.

You need to read the Bible and get right idea about homosexuality.   The Bible condemns it.

[Jayne]

Yes, Leviticus calls eating creatures without fins or scales an abomination to eat.  Then why is it OK now?

Because the dietary law of "the" Law were part of the civil code.  Only applicable to Hebrews before Christ came.  Have you ever wondered about some of the strangeness of those laws?  They were to keep those Israelites one  united people focused on the holiness of God by being obedient to him.

Christians are not bound by any of those laws......

…...now wait.  What about murder, rape, et al?

There were some things in the law that were sins:

• long before the Law
• during the Law
• and after the Law

Homosexuality was a sin very early on.  The Law is not what made homosexuality a sin.

• Genesis 19 = sodomy was not the only thing that that caused the downfall of Sodom and Gomorrah, but it was a major contributing factor.  There was no Hebrew "law" against homosexuality so why did God cause their destruction and claim is a one of the reasons?  Because Jesus spoke of a union being between a man and a woman and it being that way "from the beginning".  And in the beginning of Genesis - you can find that reference.
• Leviticus 18 and 20 = these passages teach the early Israelites that homosexuality is wrong; that coupled with the Genesis 19 and Jesus' reference show that homosexuality is a lifestyle that God has condemned from the beginning and still condemns
• Romans 1:18-32 = clear cut case of homosexuality being condemned long after the Law
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 = same
• 1 Timothy 1:8-10 = same

Rape, murder, lying, hate, stealing, all kinds of sexual sins including homosexuality, and more are sins today, there were in the law, and they were from the beginning.

Things like not eating shellfish, not cooking a baby goat in its mother's milk, taking a special type of bath after sex, and a host more are no longer in effect after the Law and were never intended for anyone but the early Hebrews for their building a nation that focused on God and holiness as a daily "craft" if you will.

 

 

[discipler777]

@artsylady

ROMANS.1:18-32 says that homosexuality is a curse/judgment from God for purposeful rebellion against Him and His Law or for knowingly rejecting Him and His Law, ie God purposely changes purposeful rebels into homosexuals. Most homosexuals like to do what is right in their own eyes = lawless wrt God's Law. Before the 1960s, gays and sodomists were ostracized and prosecuted in the US = they had to hide in "closets". In the ancient Jewish nation, LGBTQs were executed, as do Muslim Saudi Arabia today.

Hence, most homosexuals/LGBTQs claim that they are born as such but in actual fact, God had cursed and changed them as such; usually this change occurs soon after their puberty. Hence, unrepentant homosexuals are sinners against God and like other unrepentant sinners/evildoers/Law-breakers, should not be pitied or tolerated/condoned by Christians and the Church.

Nevertheless, since the 1960s, US Law has abolished laws against sodomy and protected the LGBTQs from discrimination. So, US Christians should just let the LGBTQs be, as per MATTHEW.22:21 = “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” but should not condone or tolerate the LGBTQs in Church as per 1CORINTHIANS.5:1-13 and MATTHEW.18:15-17.

To "cure" homosexuals requires them to repent of their purposeful rebellion against God and His Law. Only then will God remove His curse and change them back to heterosexuals. This is as difficult as getting idolaters to repent of their idolatry.

[artsylady]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:42 AM, Billiards Ball said:

Homosexual and heterosexual desire are not a choice; homosexual and heterosexual activity are of choice. A person who was abused by same sex abusers as a prepubescent teen may have a much harder time overcoming homosexual desire then someone who had a gay experience by choice in college or high school.

I know several people in the church who have had a gay orientation/desire and are now hopeful for future heterosexual relationships. After counseling, word study and prayer they have had heterosexual desires also.

Sometimes it happens that there is no abuse or sexual relations before puberty, yet the person still ends up very gay, and very conflicted.   

The KJV of homosexuality in the NT used to read 'man bedders' and was changed to 'homosexuality' in the 1950's (I think).    Had it remained as man bedders, it would be wrong for a man to bed a boy (or a temple priest to bed a boy - which was the practice back then)  Instead it refers to two consenting adults.   Which one, to you, seems more like a sin?    

I often wonder about the hormones people are consuming and the hormones that have been going into the water systems since the birth control pill.  Are environmental factors at play in our day and age?  If yes, we should be more sympathetic and less judgmental.

[artsylady]

17 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

A person is not to arrive at a position on homosexuality  by reading a book written by a secular author.  A Christian's position on homosexuality is supposed to be formed by what the Bible says about homosexuality.   The Bible condemns homosexuality is the strongest of terms.  It was wrong yesterday, it's wrong today and it will still be wrong tomorrow.  If someone wrote a book saying adultery was OK would you suddenly decide adultery was now OK?

Justin Lee is no different than Matthew Vines, Mel White, or Rick Brentlinger.  All of these people are gay, and claim to be Christian, but they have no desire to abstain from their sin.  So they have formulated ways of attempting biblical work-arounds to homosexuality being forbidden.  In fact, you echo one of their favorite devices just within a few more of your posts after the one above.  A device that has been thoroughly debunked many, many times.   These authors have no wish to end their sin.  They want to stay in their sinful lifestyle while claiming to be Christian.  So they write misleading books based around feelings, not scripture, and they actually misrepresent what the Bible says on this issue.    When you take the Bible for exactly what it says every time it talks about homosexuality, there is absolutely no doubt that it is a sin.

Justin Lee uses Biblical references too.  If you haven't read the book, you don't know where he is coming from.

[artsylady]

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

There it is, right on cue.

Mel White came up with the gem above.  It's a stoke of genius, and it is surprisingly effective, if the person reading it doesn't know much about how the Bible is to be interpreted. 

"Jesus never said a thing against being gay?  WOW!  I guess it must be OK!!!"

Not so much.  Taking that statement, we could assume just because Jesus didn't say anything about ______________ it must also be OK.  So lets replace gay with some different words and see if your statement above still works.

Jesus never said a thing against child molesting.

Jesus never said a thing against abortion.

Jesus never said a thing against methamphetamines.

Are any of the above statements credible, at all?  This is why one cannot plead a Biblical position based on silence.  No credible exegete works this way.  First off, the Bible is not silent on homosexuality.  The Bible condemns it, in both the Old and New Testament.  Jesus never mentions homosexuality.  There is a reason for that.  Everywhere Jesus talks about an intimate relationship, He exclusively talks about it in terms of a man, and a woman, in a marriage relationship.  Period.  That is because God recognizes no other valid relationship outside of a man and a woman in a marriage covenant.  What your sentence above is actually saying is that Jesus somehow gives a wink and a nod to behavior God already condemned.  Since Jesus is also God, that is not possible.  Biblically, it is extremely poor logic.  It is also bogus since Paul states very clearly that homosexuality is a sin.  If you also know the gay talking points when it comes to what Paul says on the subject, you can trot those out and I will debunk those as well.

The difference, for one, is that homesexual behaviour was prominent in Jesus day.   

[artsylady]

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Alan Chambers did not shut down Exodus because of success or lack of it.  He, like many others before him, caved into the societal pressure from the crushing juggernaut that is the militant Gay lobby.  In other words, he let himself be bullied into his decision.  It isn't fashionable in the secular world to be opposed to homosexuality, so Chambers changed his mind so he wouldn't get any fallout anymore.  He took the easy way out.  Success or lack of it when it comes to Exodus is immaterial.   The desire may not be able to be completely dealt with, but if it cannot, abstinence is the only Christian option.  God does not legitimize two people of the same sex engaged in an intimate sexual relationship, ever.  He does legitimize it anymore than he would a man and woman involved in an adulterous relationship. 

If you think that homosexuality is now suddenly allowable, perhaps you can share with us what other sexual sins are now allowable as well.  Surely if God changed His mind about homosexuality, He must have changed it about other sexual sin as well . . .

How you claim to know the inner workings of Chambers mind?

We all have gay people in our lives in this day and age.  I found that when I eventually let go of long-held beliefs, after a lot of searching, I was able to look at gay coworkers and friends much differently.  I realized I had been able to let go of judgment and truly love them in the Biblical sense.   I realized that before, there was always a hint of judgment that I could not shake.   There was always something at the back of my mind wanting to preach at them, but afraid I would alienate them.