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ROMANS 14 and homosexuality


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Guest shiloh357
16 hours ago, artsylady said:

I go back to hermeneutics. 

But so far, none of your arguments are based on hermeneutics, at least none that I have seen.

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Guest shiloh357
16 hours ago, artsylady said:

Sometimes it happens that there is no abuse or sexual relations before puberty, yet the person still ends up very gay, and very conflicted.   
 

Conflicted, yes because homosexuality is not natural.

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The KJV of homosexuality in the NT used to read 'man bedders' and was changed to 'homosexuality' in the 1950's (I think).    Had it remained as man bedders, it would be wrong for a man to bed a boy (or a temple priest to bed a boy - which was the practice back then)  Instead it refers to two consenting adults.   Which one, to you, seems more like a sin?    

That is not true.  Where are you getting that information?   It looks like you are getting your talking points from a pro-homosexual book, and not from any actual biblical authority.   That sounds like something made up by a gay person that knows nothing about hermeneutics or the Bible.  
 

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I often wonder about the hormones people are consuming and the hormones that have been going into the water systems since the birth control pill.  Are environmental factors at play in our day and age?  If yes, we should be more sympathetic and less judgmental.

No, the Bible says that God hates homosexuality and that it is a sin.   You have already said it was prevalent in Jesus' day, and they weren't consuming hormones back then, so the environmental argument doesn't pan out.

Why is homosexuality the ONLY sin that you will defend?   Can I commit any other sin and blame it on the environment and hormones in the water?   Can I murder, steal, rape, beat up little children, etc.  and blame it on hormones and the environment, or is the sin of homosexuality the ONLY sin in the Bible that can be justified in that manner?   

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19 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I'm sympathetic and not judgmental, however, a secular therapist reported that of 300 gay men he'd counseled, 298 either had same sex abuse or a bad relationship with their father early in life.

Homosexual desire is not a choice, sexual activity is. "I can't help being gay" and "I cannot help being straight" aren't reasons to have sex before marriage.

I am not advocating for premarital sex and I agree with what you state.  

I don't know if you are interested in the book by Justin Lee, but he was one of those Christian kids, raised in normal, functional, loving, 2 parent Christian home and had no abuse, sexual or otherwise.  Kids used to be called the "Bible boy" .  The kid around school who used to have the answers and was well verses.  As a kid, he used to condemn homosexuality vocally, when asked about it.   However, during puberty, things changed.  He started having feelings.  Same kind of feeling a heterosexual boy has towards females at that age.  He tried to fight it, and desperately tried to pray it away, with counselling etc.  I do believe that God ALWAYS wants to heal the spirit of a person who is sincere and wanting that, but it seems that inclination never left Lee.   We have a real problem with gay young people leaving the church and maybe it's not really their fault.   Maybe man in his 'wisdom', has tainted the physical world to the point where it's had a physiological impact on humans?   Is that possible?   

People keep going to certain verses in the old testament (I will address new also) but in the OT, polygamy was something that was obviously condoned.  David, a man after God's own heart, was polygamous, was he not?  Nothing is ever said against it, although it was prominent!  We weren't supposed to eat this and that, or wear cotton/wool blends.  Killing witches and mediums, taking women as the spoils of war, kill certain children.... and yes, not be homosexual... in a time when people were told to go forth and multiply.   But some Christians just hang on to that "don't be homosexual' verse or 2 from that book.

As far as the old testament, I am going with the words that I know that God actually did write down... The 10 Commandments.  Those other laws and rules were situational, and meant to be followed by a certain people during a certain time.  

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3 minutes ago, artsylady said:

I am not advocating for premarital sex and I agree with what you state.  

I don't know if you are interested in the book by Justin Lee, but he was one of those Christian kids, raised in normal, functional, loving, 2 parent Christian home and had no abuse, sexual or otherwise.  Kids used to be called the "Bible boy" .  The kid around school who used to have the answers and was well verses.  As a kid, he used to condemn homosexuality vocally, when asked about it.   However, during puberty, things changed.  He started having feelings.  Same kind of feeling a heterosexual boy has towards females at that age.  He tried to fight it, and desperately tried to pray it away, with counselling etc.  I do believe that God ALWAYS wants to heal the spirit of a person who is sincere and wanting that, but it seems that inclination never left Lee.   We have a real problem with gay young people leaving the church and maybe it's not really their fault.   Maybe man in his 'wisdom', has tainted the physical world to the point where it's had a physiological impact on humans?   Is that possible?   

People keep going to certain verses in the old testament (I will address new also) but in the OT, polygamy was something that was obviously condoned.  David, a man after God's own heart, was polygamous, was he not?  Nothing is ever said against it, although it was prominent!  We weren't supposed to eat this and that, or wear cotton/wool blends.  Killing witches and mediums, taking women as the spoils of war, kill certain children.... and yes, not be homosexual... in a time when people were told to go forth and multiply.   But some Christians just hang on to that "don't be homosexual' verse or 2 from that book.

As far as the old testament, I am going with the words that I know that God actually did write down... The 10 Commandments.  Those other laws and rules were situational, and meant to be followed by a certain people during a certain time.  

Our culture pressures people. When I was a child, it was the norm to think "girls have coodies" when prepubescent. Now young people who dislike the opposite gender are bombarded with "born gay" messages. Likewise, it's the norm for young men to idolize male athletes or role models, especially where Dad is passive.

The deadly combination of same sex abuse and/or a distant parent comes up EVERY time I've counseled gay people in the church and EVERY time I've witnessed to gay persons. If I was counseling Justin Lee, we would discuss his relationship with his dad and his dad's behavior.

Regarding the Law, Christians serve a higher law--the law says no adultery but we are not to even be emotionally involved outside marriage. The law condemns murder but we are to avoid even unrighteous anger. There are 18 Bible passages in both testaments regarding homosexuality. None are positive or laudatory in any way.

Edited by Billiards Ball
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17 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Roman 1:18-32  18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools  23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.  24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.  26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.  27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.  28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.  29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,  30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;  31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.  32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

If you are going to dismiss sexual moral laws as no longer applicable today then you also have to dismiss all moral laws.  You can't just pick homosexuality out of the bowl and leave the rest in there just because homosexuality is the fashionable sexual sin right now.

The above passage very clearly says homosexuality is a sin.

Sounds like once-Godly people gave over to their sinful nature in every way - idol worship, orgies, wickedness, slander, disobedience, etc, etc, etc.

 

Would you put Ray Boltz in this category of depraved sinners?  

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16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

 

 

16 hours ago, maryjayne said:

they are both sin, equally. Sin is sin. period. Jesus Christ died for all our sins, He made no distinction of grades of sin.

You have introduced yet another straw argument again, i see.

(bolding mine)

PS the child is not sinning. They were being raped.

You miss my point.  

The word changed.   It WAS man bedders (pedophiles) and it was changed by man to 'homosexuals'.  

They should have left it as it was.  Of course the child is not sinning.

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1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Our culture pressures people. When I was a child, it was the norm to think "girls have coodies" when prepubescent. Now young people who dislike the opposite gender are bombarded with "born gay" messages. Likewise, it's the norm for young men to idolize male athletes or role models, especially where Dad is passive.

The deadly combination of same sex abuse and/or a distant parent comes up EVERY time I've counseled gay people in the church and EVERY time I've witnessed to gay persons. If I was counseling Justin Lee, we would discuss his relationship with his dad and his dad's behavior.

Regarding the Law, Christians serve a higher law--the law says no adultery but we are not to even be emotionally involved outside marriage. The law condemns murder but we are to avoid even unrighteous anger. There are 18 Bible passages in both testaments regarding homosexuality. None are positive or laudatory in any way.

If you read the book by Justin Lee, you would see he had a normal upbringing with loving parents.  I thought I had stated that.  Perhaps not. Perhaps you will read the book.  If you are counseling people, it might not be a bad thing to get another perspective.  What do you think about that? 

When Exodus closed down, some of the criticisms of the organization was the fact that no matter what, they tried to bring the reason for being gay back to abuse or early sexual experimentation, which wasn't always the case.  You seem to be doing the same thing.  Are you?

You remain silent on verses about killing witches, mediums, children and the fact that a man after God's own heart, was polygamous!  While clinging to verses that apparently condemn gay behaviour - at a time when we were supposed to go forth and multiply.

What are your thoughts on that? Please, do tell.  How do you explain this to gay people you are counselling?  Do these subject come up?

Eighteen verses against homosexuality? I am afraid you are stretching it somehow.   

Again, remember the word 'man bedder' was changed to 'homosexual' in the 1950s, so you might as well cross that one off.  


 

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10 minutes ago, artsylady said:

If you read the book by Justin Lee, you would see he had a normal upbringing with loving parents.  I thought I had stated that.  Perhaps not. Perhaps you will read the book.  If you are counseling people, it might not be a bad thing to get another perspective.  What do you think about that? 

When Exodus closed down, some of the criticisms of the organization was the fact that no matter what, they tried to bring the reason for being gay back to abuse or early sexual experimentation, which wasn't always the case.  You seem to be doing the same thing.  Are you?

You remain silent on verses about killing witches, mediums, children and the fact that a man after God's own heart, was polygamous!  While clinging to verses that apparently condemn gay behaviour - at a time when we were supposed to go forth and multiply.

What are your thoughts on that? Please, do tell.  How do you explain this to gay people you are counselling?  Do these subject come up?

Eighteen verses against homosexuality? I am afraid you are stretching it somehow.   

Again, remember the word 'man bedder' was changed to 'homosexual' in the 1950s, so you might as well cross that one off.  


 

Thanks for your response--I see you care--I care as well, as I have gay family and friends and also, people I counsel in the church with these issues. Here are some thoughts:

1) In the book, does Justin's father describe his own lifestyle? Are counselors' remarks included, people who have interviewed Justin and/or his father, or only Justin's? I've spoken to many people who told me, "I had a happy childhood" and then later, "My father was absent in my life" including children of preachers.

2) If Justin is a different case, how much weight should that have against a secular counselor who found two root causes for 298 of 300 men? Should we change our fundamental understanding for Justin, who makes it 3 in 300 men or 1% in a case study?

3) Exodus was accused of bringing all back to abuse or experimentation. Are you understanding it seems to be 1) abuse 2) distant relations with a same sex parent, since homosexuality is an exploration for a man of what a male is and for a woman, of what a woman is? Meaning, Exodus was working from half the root causes only, if I understand what you're saying is right.

4) Witchcraft and polygamy are not punished today via capital punishment. Are they horrific to us as born agains? Of course. Is homosexuality "okay" since it finds the same lists in both testaments as capital crimes?

5) Do I tell people, as you asked, in counseling, that "homosexuality is okay, because the commands relate to Adam and Noah, the two people told to multiply"? I do not. Homosexuality isn't discussed with Adam and Noah, apart from God's institution of Adam's marriage as with Eve. The Hebrews and NT saints are also warned against homosexuality.

6) I understand what you are saying regarding the Hebrew and paedophilia, however, you have statements like "if a man lies with a man, as he would a woman," not "if a man lies with a child, as he would a woman", one reason most scholars do not accept the "paedophilia, not homosexuality, is condemned" theory.

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I am out of time for today.  I could get caught up all day long but that's not healthy or good.  Besides, there are too many here, not you, who would refuse to rethink etc.

Justin had a happy child - no daddy, mommy issues - no childhood issues.  

Very quickly, you talk about people who turn gay due to an unhappy house or fatherhood or whatever.  MANY also experience unhappy households etc and ARE not gay and are far from it.   You know this. 

Can you give some thought that hormonal issues due to a corrupted and manipulated environment might just be at play here?  

Again, if you're counselling people, please give ample, reasonable thought to the other side.

  I'll go back to the lowest common denominator, here to.  Let's cut to the chase. 

David was "a man after God's own heart", yet a polygamist.  Comments please.  Also, it seemed God was ok with his many wives, just not the one who was married to someone else.  Am I wrong?  

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2 hours ago, artsylady said:

I'll go back to the lowest common denominator, here to.  Let's cut to the chase. 

David was "a man after God's own heart", yet a polygamist.  Comments please.  Also, it seemed God was ok with his many wives, just not the one who was married to someone else.  Am I wrong?  

.

MATTHEW.19:1-10 (NKJV) = Marriage and Divorce

19:1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”

And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”

He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

.

GENESIS.4:19 = 19 Then Lamech took for himself two wives: the name of one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah.

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Genesis 26:34 = When Esau was forty years old, he took as wives Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite.

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1TIMOTHY.3:2-6 & 12 = 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. ...

12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

.

Because of the hardness of their hearts, God permitted Moses to allow the Jews to divorce their wives more easily(DEUTERONOMY.24:1-4 - circa 1500BC), and/or to take in more than one wife(polygamy) which was then already an established Semite practice since the days of Lamech in 3000BC(.?). As per the Word of God/Jesus in the NT above, Christians are no longer permitted by God/Jesus to do the same(except for adultery), otherwise bad things will happen to them.

Edited by discipler777
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