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Uber Genius

Can One Argue for God's Existence without assuming the Bible is true?

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Can we gain knowledge of God based on observed facts and experience apart from divine revelation?

50+ years ago in the US, the culture still accepted the truth of the Bible. Evangelists like Josh McDowell or Billy Graham could expound truths in the Bible to lead people to the gospel message.
Today no such assumptions are held by our culture. Trying to convince them that the Bible is a legitimate source of knowledge, let alone "truth," meets with derision or at best, suspicion.

And yet we spend our entire lives gaining knowledge about our world by using our faculties.

  1. Memory
  2. Testimony
  3. Sense perception
  4. Rationality
  5. Introspection

These faculties are all potentially defeatable (fancy term meaning they can be wrong from time to time). Despite the fact that a stick appears to bend when we put it in the water, through the use of our other faculties (memory, rationality, and introspection) we overcome our misunderstanding of our sense experience alone.

When we perceive that the universe began to exist what does that imply?

When we recognize that nothing can't possibly produce something, what does that imply?

We perceive desires such as the one to live a meaningful existence, again what does that imply?

When we experience natural beauty do we stop and ask why is anything beautiful? What would create a universal standard of beauty?

When we are upset that someone mistreated us do we ask why is there a moral value or duty to treat people a certain way? What is the origin of that duty? To whom do we owe that duty?

There are dozens of similar questions that lead one to the inference of a Creator. 

Please feel free to comment on other features of our world that appear, upon some careful reflection, to be transcendent in their origin.

Or are these just brute facts? Or perhaps accidents or coincidental to evolution and therefore not actual features of our external world but rather delusions?

Edited by Uber Genius
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Yes, we can know that there is a Creator through nature.  All the beauty of sunsets, waterfalls, oceans, and even thunderstorms reflect on the nature of God.  The beauty of flowers, the uniqueness and abilities of creatures reflect also on God.  The human cell and replication of the same is so marvelous they certainly show intelligent design.  

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19  because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Rom 1:21  because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22  Professing to be wise, they became fools

To know God's saving grace we must go back to the truths in the Bible.   I believe that the people who receive the revelation of God in nature will receive more light leading to receiving Christ.  But when we deny the natural evidence of God our minds are darkened and our hearts hardened to receiving more. 

 

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3 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Can we gain knowledge of God based on observed facts and experience apart from divine revelation?

50+ years ago in the US, the culture still accepted the truth of the Bible. Evangelists like Josh McDowell or Billy Graham could expound truths in the Bible to lead people to the gospel message.
Today no such assumptions are held by our culture. Trying to convince them that the Bible is a legitimate source of knowledge, let alone "truth," meets with derision or at best, suspicion.

And yet we spend our entire lives gaining knowledge about our world by using our faculties.

  1. Memory
  2. Testimony
  3. Sense perception
  4. Rationality
  5. Introspection

These faculties are all potentially defeatable (fancy term meaning they can be wrong from time to time). Despite the fact that a stick appears to bend when we put it in the water, through the use of our other faculties (memory, rationality, and introspection) we overcome our misunderstanding of our sense experience alone.

When we perceive that the universe began to exist what does that imply?

When we recognize that nothing can't possibly produce something, what does that imply?

We perceive desires such as the one to live a meaningful existence, again what does that imply?

When we experience natural beauty do we stop and ask why is anything beautiful? What would create a universal standard of beauty?

When we are upset that someone mistreated us do we ask why is there a moral value or duty to treat people a certain way? What is the origin of that duty? To whom do we owe that duty?

There are dozens of similar questions that lead one to the inference of a Creator. 

Please feel free to comment on other features of our world that appear, upon some careful reflection, to be transcendent in their origin.

Or are these just brute facts? Or perhaps accidents or coincidental to evolution and therefore not actual features of our external world but rather delusions?

Many Christians act as the world does, determined that God needs our help, and they act on their own beliefs. God doesn't need our help, He wants our help, but that doesn't stop people from pretending to act on God behalf even though they are not true. The effects of certain evangelist are evident today. His, "1, 2, 3, pray after me" formula has led to false beliefs, false fire insurance and the greatest tragedy of the church in history. The kingdom of God is not by words, but by power. The world sees the "church" as it truly is, fake. Only God's power can effect change in one's life. Paying a formula is nothing more than a snake oil salesman. To get the world to see Christ, we must first have Him.

No to answer your question: yes, mathematics. It's the universal language and proof of God's existence. Why do you think so many hate math? Because it points to God's perfection and it is His signature. With the complexity of the universe, do you think He wouldn't put that same complexity into His word? He did. There are a lot of amazing facts about the word of God. Genesis 1:1 contains Pi, and John 1:1 contains Euler's Number. Bother are never-ending numbers and both numbers hold vast mysteries within their patterns. Furthermore, the fact that these number exists in the Hebrew scriptures is more amazing when the Jews didn't decide to use their alphabet as numbers until around 200 BC, thousands of years AFTER it was penned. 

There are so many gems in the written word of God that proves itself over and over (in the originals). And math proves God's existence. 

 

 

 

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We can know and argue for the existence of a god (an uncaused causal agent, a being outside and greater than spacetime) through the evidence found in nature. Of course, that only goes so far. Only the Bible shows us the true God.

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18 hours ago, Uber Genius said:

Can we gain knowledge of God based on observed facts and experience apart from divine revelation?

You can understand the presence of an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator who is everywhere present from created order.   The created order would not reveal the Person God the Father, or the Trinity of the Godhead, but all we see in terms of nature has the signature of the Creator written upon it. 

There are two types of revelation:  General revelation (nature) and special revelation (the Bible).   Nature reveals the existence of God, but the Bible reveals His Person and His character/attributes. 

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There's always fulfilled prophecy in Scripture. You don't have to assume it's true as prophecy is fulfilled written 100s of years earlier. What books of man have done that?

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why would one assume the bible is true?   the bible speaks for itself.  prophecy of Israel coming back as a nation has been fulfilled.  the signs of the times... earthquakes and natural disasters, when I was in 6th grade my science teacher told me we would never have to worry about a tsunami in our lifetime because they are so rare but now-a-days, just turn on the news, just watch they happen, and earthquakes are happening more frequently and are stronger and volcano erruptions too and hurricanes are becoming  quite common and very destructive, pestilences... avian bird flu, sars, HIV/AIDS, even ebola, and many many more including zika have surfaced, more false christs and false teachers/teachings are coming on the scene and people, just as it says in the bible are flocking to it with "itching ears", wars and rumors of wars... do I even need to comment on this?  more people are being persecuted as christians world wide even a rise of this in america, mildly compared to the rest of the world but its present, the love of many waxing cold, and just look at the muslim world surrounding little Israel... they want to move in tke over and make Jerusalem their new capital.  speeches can be found on the net, even with multitudes chanting death to Israel, death to the west, death to america.  all of the signs are here the only one i do not see yet is scoffers saying where is the promise of His coming.   and also...

Psa 19:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psa 19:2  Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Psa 19:3  There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4  Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

the fact that other psalms such as psalm 22 was written 2000 some odd years before Jesus crucifixion, even before crucifixion was instated as punishment, and even modern day physicians have said whats said in this psalm is exactly what one would experience if crucified. 

there is so much truth in the bible, so much evidence in nature around us, so much evidence even with in our own being... because we are made in His likeness and image. 

The bible says Its Gods good pleasure to give us the kingdom... He actually wants to.  no one has any excuse and any rebuttal is foolishness, as per the bible.. a fool saith in his heart there is no God. 

and even more there are a number of christians now who will tell you they have even heard God speak.  Modern shrinks would just love to get a christian saying that and get them committed somewhere... because they hear voices.  but I do not care, I will gladly say it... I have heard God speak...  and my sheep know my voice.  

The fact there are people in the world, including myself who have before been a bad person... and yet today they claim to have been "saved"  and they do not live the same way.  totally a different person.  and I can say for myself, I am not the same person and I do not do the same things i used to.  not even interested in those things.  can a leopard change his spots?  But the bible says God can change a mans heart.  can renew his mind.  can make him a new creature.  Praise God!

anyone who denies God simply loves their sin and dont want to turn from it and allow Jesus to be The LORD of their life.   But i can honestly testify....

Psa 34:4  I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
Psa 34:5  They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed.
Psa 34:6  This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.
Psa 34:7  The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
Psa 34:8  O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Psa 34:9  O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.
Psa 34:10  The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.
Psa 34:11  Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

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Let's not be naive though. Belief in God is not the same as being saved! The devil believes in God.

H also might know more about him than we do. One cannot merely believe in a creator, one needs to understand that we are sinners, and sin separates us from God but that God made a provision, a way to deal with that separation.

Once an if a person acknowledges the one true God one still needs to accept God's will and submit to God not jast as the creator, but as the Lord over their life. Apart from that, we are still in rebellion and eternally separated from God.

The message then, should be Christ centered, millions believe in a creator, but are still lost.

Apart from the Bible the specifics of the message go unnoticed for most people.

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On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 3:45 AM, Uber Genius said:

Can we gain knowledge of God based on observed facts and experience apart from divine revelation?

 

 

Hi Uber Genius,

1. The power of the Godhead is displayed primarily in the creation of the world, and appeals to the human reason.

2. The purpose of the Godhead is declared particularly in the revelation of truth, which appeals to the human conscience.

3. The presence of the Godhead is disclosed perfectly in the manifestation of the Son, and appeals to the human heart.

 

These facts express a personal Creator, a personal Revealer and a personal Manifester. All three are realised and recognised in Christ.

Marilyn.

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